3D/2D Displays that support 3D & 2D & 24p at multiplies of the original frame rate

[HDTV1080P]

The following Sony Rear projectors have been removed from the list since they have been cancled before being released

Sony KDS-Z70XBR5
Sony KDS-Z60XBR5

Sony has officially canceled all Rear projector screens which includes both the 3 LCD and SXRD models. I will remove all the Sony rear projectors from the list once inventories are depleted from retail stores and discount mail order companies. The purpose of the list is to keep true 1080P/24 displays on the list that can still be found for purchase. More details about Sony’s business decision can be read at the following link

http://www.twice.com/article/CA6514401.html

Many people were waiting to purchase the new Sony 70 inch SXRD rear projector that has just been canceled. Last years 70 inch Sony rear projector cost $4,000-$5,000 on clearance. If you want a Sony 70 inch now your only choice is a $32,999 LCD screen that does not have as good of black levels and response times.
For $33,000 I can get an excellent front projector that will run circles around the 70 inch BRAVIA LCD flat panel. Sony needs to try and lower the cost on the 70” LCD flat panel if possible. I would rather get the Pioneer Elite 60 inch Plasma for $7,500 (list price).
Most consumers when they saw flat panels at retail they liked the brighter thinner screens compared to the large big rear projector. They were willing to purchase the more expensive LCD and Plasma screens at a higher price. Just because the screen looks brighter does not mean LCD’s have a better picture. The reality is rear projectors like the Sony SXRD have a 2.5ms response time and better black levels. I would choose a rear projector over a LCD flat panel any day for serious movie watching. Some SXRD consumers shopping in the future for a new display will now decide to either replace or upgrade their displays with either a Pioneer Elite Plasma or a Sony ceiling mounted Front Projector SXRD screen.

For those that want a Sony SXRD rear projector with a true 1080P/24 120HZ feature you will need to purchase it now since inventories will be depleted soon. Here is a comparison of prices between rear projectors and flat panel LCD and Plasma screens

The Sony KDS-60A3000 60 inch can be purchased for around $1815 from various discount mail order companies. Discontinued rear projector
http://www.pricerunner.com/pl/2-984807/TVs/Sony-Bravia-KDS-60A3000-Compare-Prices?other_hits=%3B%3B25%3B&q=sony+kds-60a3000

Once the Sony 60 inch is sold out the only current choice in a 60 inch flat panel with true 1080P/24 refresh rates is the Pioneer. The Pioneer Elite 60 inch Plasma can be found for around $7,000
http://www.pricerunner.com/pl/2-1017165/TVs/Pioneer-Elite-PRO-150FD-Compare-Prices?other_hits=%3B%3B19%3B&q=pioneer+pro-150fd

There is the 60 inch Pioneer PDP-6010FD Plasma which can be found for around $4400.
http://www.pricerunner.com/pl/2-993059/TVs/Pioneer-PDP-6010FD-Compare-Prices?q=pdp-6010fd

The Sony KDS-55A3000 55 inch can be purchased for around $1623. Discontinued rear projector
http://www.pricerunner.com/pl/2-984825/TVs/Sony-Bravia-KDS-55A3000-Compare-Prices?other_hits=%3B%3B25%3B&q=sony+kds-55a3000

For under $1400 the Sony KDS-50A3000 50 inch can be purchased from some locations Discontinued rear projector
http://www.pricerunner.com/pl/2-984830/TVs/Sony-Bravia-KDS-50A3000-Compare-Prices?other_hits=%3B%3B25%3B&q=sony+kds-50a3000

Or one can choose the Sony KDL-52XBR5 52 inch flat panel for around $3649
http://www.pricerunner.com/pl/2-983416/TVs/Sony-KDL-52XBR5-Compare-Prices?q=kdl-52xbr5

The Pioneer PRO-110FD 50 inch Elite Plasma can be found for under $4,500
http://www.pricerunner.com/pl/2-1017150/TVs/Pioneer-Elite-PRO-110FD-Compare-Prices?q=pro-110fd

The Pioneer PDP-5010FD 50 inch Plasma can be found for under $3400.
http://www.pricerunner.com/pl/2-991611/TVs/Pioneer-PDP-5010FD-Compare-Prices?q=pdp-5010fd


Looking at the above prices you can see that prices are going to shoot up very fast once rear projectors are gone from the market. The Sony 70 inch SXRD rear projector use to sale for $4,000-$5,000 on clearance and now if you want a 70 inch Sony you will be paying $32,999 for a flat panel LCD. To be fair the Sony KDL-70XBR3 can be found for around $28,000 from discount Internet companies. The KDL-70XBR3 appears to only have a 1080P/60 input no 1080P/24 input.
http://www.pricerunner.com/pl/2-888055/TVs/Sony-Bravia-KDL-70XBR3-Compare-Prices?q=kdl-70xbr3

[gvortex7]

Just wanted to welcome you back on the forum HDTV1080P. I was wondering about your sudden "departure" from here a few weeks back, as you seemed to be noticeably absent. But, it's good to have you back.

[randy8118]

Originally Posted by dperrone

Question, in one room I have a new Samsung HLT-5089S (do not think it will display 1080P/24, it was not on this list of sets on this thread) and in another room I have a Pioneer Plasma 5010-FD (this will do 1080P/24). Both rooms I have Panasonic BD30's. I played Ratatoulie this morning on the samsung and set the BD30 to 1080P/24, the tv flashed the signal of 1080P/24. The movie played great with no problems. My question is, was this actually displaying the movie in 1080P/24 or 1080P/60 ? I didn't think this set was capable of displaying that?

I had the Samsung BD-P1400, which I returned for the Panasonic DMP-BD30K. In the setup menu on the Samsung, I was able to enable 1080P/24 mode. Depending on the Blu-Ray Disc, I'd see either "1920x1080 @ 60Hz" or "1920x1080 @ 24Hz" when I pressed the "info" button on the remote. (It displays "1920x1080i @ 60 Hz" when watching HDTV.) This led me to believe that the Samsung HL-T5676S would actually do 24 fps mode.

The Panasonic will not allow me to enable 24 fps mode. After reading this thread, I'd totally confused as to what Samsung TV is doing. Perhaps this is some kind of proprietary 24 fps mode that Samsung devices are doing. BTW, the Samsung DLP manual says that "Cinema Smooth film mode 3-2 pulldown" is only avaliable on analog sources, so it does not seem to apply to HDMI digital sources.

Hope this info helps someone. I have to say, all this product confusion and misinformation is leaving me blue. Hopefully, it's an intervendor incompability issue that some future firmware update will address.

[mainman]

Just to clear things up,

In the OP, I see Sony's XBR4 and XBR5 listed:
"Sony KDL-40XBR4 (1080P/24 correctly refreshed at 120HZ when Motion Enhancer is turned off)"

It is saying "Motion Enhancer is turned off". Is this correct? You don't mean Motion Enhancer turned on?

In the specs of those tv's at SonyStyle.com it says:
"Motionflow 120hz"

When you are saying "Motion Enhancer" you mean "Motionflow"? Or is "Motion Enhancer something totally different?

Plus, other Sony 1080p tv's accept 24p. I am talking about the W3000 and V3000 series. These tv's lack the "Motionflow 120hz" feature though.
Is this why these tv's are not on the list? Because they don't do 24p correctly? Or is it because you guys haven't gotten to those yet?

[HDTV1080P]

Originally Posted by randy8118

I had the Samsung BD-P1400, which I returned for the Panasonic DMP-BD30K. In the setup menu on the Samsung, I was able to enable 1080P/24 mode. Depending on the Blu-Ray Disc, I'd see either "1920x1080 @ 60Hz" or "1920x1080 @ 24Hz" when I pressed the "info" button on the remote. (It displays "1920x1080i @ 60 Hz" when watching HDTV.) This led me to believe that the Samsung HL-T5676S would actually do 24 fps mode.

The Panasonic will not allow me to enable 24 fps mode. After reading this thread, I'd totally confused as to what Samsung TV is doing. Perhaps this is some kind of proprietary 24 fps mode that Samsung devices are doing. BTW, the Samsung DLP manual says that "Cinema Smooth film mode 3-2 pulldown" is only avaliable on analog sources, so it does not seem to apply to HDMI digital sources.

Hope this info helps someone. I have to say, all this product confusion and misinformation is leaving me blue. Hopefully, it's an intervendor incompability issue that some future firmware update will address.

There appears to be an incompatibility problem between the Samsung and the Panasonic that is preventing you from using the 1080P/24 feature on the Panasonic BLU-RAY player. Hopefully Samsung will have a firmware update to fix the issue. Now when connecting your BLU-RAY player to your Samsung you might get a better picture quality if you place the player on 60HZ and let the player do the 3:2 conversion since it is my understanding the Samsung uses a 3:2 pulldown process with 1080P/24 material and converts to 60HZ before going to 120HZ. I am still waiting for a official professional review on the 120HZ Samsungs to see for sure if they do or do not handle 1080P/24 properly. On another forum I have heard rumors of a possible firmware update that might allow the 120HZ Samsungs to display at correct multiplies of the original frame. This might be just rumors and I have not seen any offical Samsung announcements.

[HDTV1080P]

Originally Posted by mainman

Just to clear things up,

In the OP, I see Sony's XBR4 and XBR5 listed:
"Sony KDL-40XBR4 (1080P/24 correctly refreshed at 120HZ when Motion Enhancer is turned off)"

It is saying "Motion Enhancer is turned off". Is this correct? You don't mean Motion Enhancer turned on?

In the specs of those tv's at SonyStyle.com it says:
"Motionflow 120hz"

When you are saying "Motion Enhancer" you mean "Motionflow"? Or is "Motion Enhancer something totally different?

Plus, other Sony 1080p tv's accept 24p. I am talking about the W3000 and V3000 series. These tv's lack the "Motionflow 120hz" feature though.
Is this why these tv's are not on the list? Because they don't do 24p correctly? Or is it because you guys haven't gotten to those yet?

Currently I only have the Sony rear projectors and LCD screens that use 120HZ native refresh rate on the list. It is my understanding that all other Sony LCD flat panels that have a 1080P/24 input incorrectly refresh the image at 60HZ by using a 3:2 pulldown process. Motion Flow is activated on the Sony by adjusting the Motion Enhancer setting to on.
If you want 1080P/24 film based material to look like smooth 60HZ video then motion enhancer should be turned on so interpolation of new frames will create a smooth 120HZ image. If you want 1080P/24 material to look like 35mm or 70mm film with reduced judder then motion enhancer needs to be turned off so the display will do a 5:5 pulldown and refresh the image correctly at multiplies of the original frame. The display always refreshes at 120HZ.

Please read this old link for details about the motion enhancer (motionflow) settings. It should answer all your questions.

https://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.php?p=253042&postcount=213

[HDTV1080P]

Here is a review link for the Optoma HD81-LV that has been added to the list.
http://www.projectorreviews.com/optoma/hd81-lv/index.php

The review does not mention how it handles 1080P/24 material but from one of my sources I have learned that it uses the exact same method as the HD-81 and refreshes 1080P/24 material at 48HZ. It is the same as the HD-81 but a brighter version.

[HDTV1080P]

The Sony SXRD KDS-60A3000, KDS-55A3000, and KDS-50A3000 refresh rates have been updated.

As mentioned before Sony no longer makes rear projectors and once stores run out of them they are gone for good. A professional review by Thomas J Norton was just published recently on the KDS-50A3000 over at UltimateAVmag.com. The 60, 55, and 50 inch Sony’s listed above in blue use the exact same instruction manual and are exactly the same accept for screen size, weight and dimensions. All 3 rear projectors refresh 1080P/24 material at 96HZ by doing a 4:4 pulldown when both motion enhancer and Motion Naturalizer are turned off. 60HZ material is refreshed at 120HZ.

Quote
“Motion blur is not as significant an issue on an SXRD (or LCoS) display as it is in many flat panel LCDs, but it is more prevalent than on a DLP or plasma set. As one of the new 120Hz displays, the Sony KDS-50A3000 offers two features designed to minimize motion blur: Motion Enhancer and Motion Naturalizer.”
“Sony's literature and manual are both vague in describing what each of these features does. But I scoped out a bit more detail from Sony HQ. With both of them turned off, the set converts a 60 frames per second (fps) source (a 60Hz refresh rate) to 120fps by simply repeating a each frame a second time. For a 24fps source, the set repeats each frame four times to produce 96fps.


Some of the reasons why LCOS (SXRD) is better quality then LCD

Quote
“SXRD and LCoS designs offer a number of advantages over plain LCD. Their panels are much thinner and thus less prone to generating motion lag, even though the light passes through the panel twice. And in LCoS and SXRD all the electronic circuits are located behind the reflective surface, where they don't interfere with the layout of the pixels. In LCD panels the control wires must pass through the spaces between the pixels, which makes for wider gaps and a more obvious screen door effect in the image.
If SXRD and LCoS are superior realizations of LCD technology, why has LCD become dominant? Two reasons. First, reflective technologies like LCoS and SXRD can't be used in flat panel designs. Second, LCoS and SXRD panels are far more complex than basic LCDs. It took years before manufacturers learned to produce them economically, reliably, and in quantity.
As with all SXRD displays, the KDS-50A3000 uses three separate SXRD panels, one each for red, green, and blue. So unlike single-chip DLP designs there is no rotating color wheel to generate rainbow artifacts.”
Link to review
http://ultimateavmag.com/rearprojectiontvs/1207sony3000/index.html

[Bullseye]

While watching movies on my Panasonic 50" plasma 1080p i noticed that the panning sequences appeared to be running quite fast. When i turned off the 24 setting on the PS3 it was better. Is there a solution or am i not missing out on much and don't worry?

[HDTV1080P]

Originally Posted by Bullseye

While watching movies on my Panasonic 50" plasma 1080p i noticed that the panning sequences appeared to be running quite fast. When i turned off the 24 setting on the PS3 it was better. Is there a solution or am i not missing out on much and don't worry?

Currently Panasonic does not make any Plasma’s that accepts a 1080P/24 input. They all have a 1080P/60 input. When you set your PS3 1080P/24 setting to auto the PS3 is going to perform HDMI hand shacking with the Panasonic Plasma and the PS3 will realize the Panasonic only accepts 60HZ. So if the PS3 is set for auto for 1080P/24 it still will only output 60HZ since it auto detects what your set can accept. Even when the PS3 is set to "1080P/24 on mode" some displays where there is proper handshaking communication the PS3 will still only output 1080P/60 when it detects a 1080P/60 only display. Some displays have a info button that shows on the screen the resolution and HZ that is being received from the BLU-RAY player.

[Seretur]

Good to have you back, HDTV1080p!

I'm currently in Europe, and am looking for a new TV -- LCD or Plasma, between 42" and 50". The thing is, models here all have different labeling than their US counterparts (okay, they do have some parts that are different -- PAL ability and all that), but it's making it very hard to see which European screen corresponds to which US screen. And then there's this whole 120Hz/100Hz issue.

I'll probably end up getting the Sony X3000, the local equivalent of xbr -- 4? or 5? can't remember; damn, this coding is SO difficult to keep track of -- but I have yet to find a convincing proof as to its ability to display proper 24p picture at the local 100Hz standard.

Basically, I don't mean to take up too much of your time, but if you could point me to (a) a site that tells me which model is which model across the teritories, and (b) a resource that explains whether 24p is even possible in Europe, and if it's really a function of current frequency or what -- I'd be much obliged.

Thanks in advance!

[Bullseye]

Originally Posted by HDTV1080P

Currently Panasonic does not make any Plasma’s that accepts a 1080P/24 input. They all have a 1080P/60 input. When you set your PS3 1080P/24 setting to auto the PS3 is going to perform HDMI hand shacking with the Panasonic Plasma and the PS3 will realize the Panasonic only accepts 60HZ. So if the PS3 is set for auto for 1080P/24 it still will only output 60HZ since it auto detects what your set can accept. Even when the PS3 is set to "1080P/24 on mode" some displays where there is proper handshaking communication the PS3 will still only output 1080P/60 when it detects a 1080P/60 only display. Some displays have a info button that shows on the screen the resolution and HZ that is being received from the BLU-RAY player.

Is it then better to have the 1080p/24 set to off. It just appeared that the landscaping panning was much better and did not dazzle the eye.

BTW the model number is Panasonic TH-50PZ70B

http://panasonic.co.uk/plasma-tv/th-50pz70b/index.htm

Also on the review it stated that it accepted 1080p/24 from the PS3. I know they are quoting the 42 inch model here but they are essentially the same specs.
http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/Panasonic-...alibration.php

[HDTV1080P]

Originally Posted by Bullseye

Is it then better to have the 1080p/24 set to off. It just appeared that the landscaping panning was much better and did not dazzle the eye.

BTW the model number is Panasonic TH-50PZ70B

http://panasonic.co.uk/plasma-tv/th-50pz70b/index.htm

Also on the review it stated that it accepted 1080p/24 from the PS3. I know they are quoting the 42 inch model here but they are essentially the same specs.
http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/Panasonic-...alibration.php

Bullseye thanks for the link. So far all the reviews of the Panasonic Plasma’s in the US have mentioned no 1080P/24 inputs for the 2007 models. Now since this model you own is a UK version it does have a 1080P/24 input. Currently to my knowledge all Panasonic Plasma’s refresh at 60HZ and do not use the multiplies of the original frame method.
Yes since your Panasonic does have a 1080P/24 input that refreshes at 60HZ you would notice the difference between 1080P/24 and 1080P/60. What is happening is that your PS3 does a better job of converting 1080P/24 to 60HZ compared to the Panasonic. So yes if you notice a better quality with the PS3 1080P/24 setting off then you should leave the 1080P/24 setting off.
Sorry for the misunderstanding, I thought you were talking about a Panasonic Plasma for the US market.

[HDTV1080P]

Originally Posted by Seretur

Good to have you back, HDTV1080p!

I'm currently in Europe, and am looking for a new TV -- LCD or Plasma, between 42" and 50". The thing is, models here all have different labeling than their US counterparts (okay, they do have some parts that are different -- PAL ability and all that), but it's making it very hard to see which European screen corresponds to which US screen. And then there's this whole 120Hz/100Hz issue.

I'll probably end up getting the Sony X3000, the local equivalent of xbr -- 4? or 5? can't remember; damn, this coding is SO difficult to keep track of -- but I have yet to find a convincing proof as to its ability to display proper 24p picture at the local 100Hz standard.

Basically, I don't mean to take up too much of your time, but if you could point me to (a) a site that tells me which model is which model across the teritories, and (b) a resource that explains whether 24p is even possible in Europe, and if it's really a function of current frequency or what -- I'd be much obliged.

Thanks in advance!

All the newsletters and magazines I subscribe to are for the US market. I do not know any good source of reviews that mentions the multiplies of the original frame when reviewing 1080P/24 displays outside of the US. Most likely the Sony 100HZ models might refresh 1080P/24 material at 96HZ. I would love to see a professional review on the 100HZ Sony’s that have a 1080P/24 input. 50HZ material is refreshed at 100HZ on the Sony’s.

[Seretur]

Thanks for the response!

And it's quite surprising that noone has really settled the refresh rate issue for the European models. I asked Paidgeek about it some months ago, and even he wasn't certain. You wouldn't believe such a thing was possible in this day and age, would you?

Even the most thorough of the UK HDTV review sites don't have a complete answer, but I suppose I should be satisfied with their claim that the 24p input is presented "with no judder", however vague that sounds.

[Bullseye]

Originally Posted by HDTV1080P

Bullseye thanks for the link. So far all the reviews of the Panasonic Plasma’s in the US have mentioned no 1080P/24 inputs for the 2007 models. Now since this model you own is a UK version it does have a 1080P/24 input. Currently to my knowledge all Panasonic Plasma’s refresh at 60HZ and do not use the multiplies of the original frame method.
Yes since your Panasonic does have a 1080P/24 input that refreshes at 60HZ you would notice the difference between 1080P/24 and 1080P/60. What is happening is that your PS3 does a better job of converting 1080P/24 to 60HZ compared to the Panasonic. So yes if you notice a better quality with the PS3 1080P/24 setting off then you should leave the 1080P/24 setting off.
Sorry for the misunderstanding, I thought you were talking about a Panasonic Plasma for the US market.

Thanks HD. Much appreciated feedback.

[jd213]

Any word from CES about more companies releasing 1080p24-friendly flat-panel displays? Or is it still just Sony LCDs and Pioneer plasmas?

[HDTV1080P]

Originally Posted by jd213

Any word from CES about more companies releasing 1080p24-friendly flat-panel displays? Or is it still just Sony LCDs and Pioneer plasmas?

I have a lot of stuff to read and update today. Sony just announced some new true 1080P flat panels for this summer and Pioneer mentioned some 9mm thin Plasma screens with better quality pictures. Pioneer's new technology will not be ready until 2009 or later.
Pioneer’s Kuro Get Super Thin,‘Absolute’ Black
http://www.twice.com/article/CA6516821.html

quote
"Pioneer said neither technology will be commercially available in 2008."

Sharp is coming out with 120Hz dispalys soon but I do not know how they will process 1080P/24 material yet.

[mfinochio]

I own the Mitsubishi 65-833 dlp, it has 120hz,can anyone confirm if the 833 series does 24fps? I have the Panny 10ak so I have not tried it yet.
Michael

[HDTV1080P]

Originally Posted by mfinochio

I own the Mitsubishi 65-833 dlp, it has 120hz,can anyone confirm if the 833 series does 24fps? I have the Panny 10ak so I have not tried it yet.
Michael

All of the 120HZ flat panel LCD and DLP Mitsubishi’s to my knowledge accept a 1080P/24 input and convert to 60HZ first using 3:2 pulldown instead of doing a 5:5 pulldown (which is why they are not on the list). Only select Mitsubishi front projectors are on the list since they correctly display 1080P/24 material at multiplies of the original frame.
Please see the following link for more details
https://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.php?p=409592&postcount=286