3D/2D Displays that support 3D & 2D & 24p at multiplies of the original frame rate - Page 21 - Blu-ray Forum

sicofante · 02-28-2008, 02:22 AM

I'm a plasma fan and I'm very interested in the upcoming Panasonic models. I read here that they'll be showing 24p content at 48 Hz and I have a question about it:

Is 48 Hz enough for flicker free pictures?

HDTV1080P · 02-28-2008, 06:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sicofante

I'm a plasma fan and I'm very interested in the upcoming Panasonic models. I read here that they'll be showing 24p content at 48 Hz and I have a question about it:

Is 48 Hz enough for flicker free pictures?

Yes 48HZ is enough, most 35mm and 70mm films in the theater are flashed on the screen at 48HZ or 72HZ. The only time you normally are going to see flicker is at 24fps. 24fps is unwatchable and no projector or video equipment is going to use that rate on the screen.
There are some articles that I have read that mention higher refresh rates are easier on the eyes and offer a smoother picture when comparing the exact same display technologies. I still like the quality of the Pioneer 72HZ Plasma screens over any 120HZ LCD screens when it comes to overall image quality. LCD technology needs 120HZ or higher to reduce motion blur and 72HZ Plasma still offers a better picture then 120HZ LCD. The same might be true for the Panasonic 48HZ Plasma screens when comparing them to 120HZ LCD screens. We will have to wait for a review to know for sure how the new Panasonics coming out perform with BLU-RAY. Specs can change before a product is released. Also one day LCD screens might offer 240HZ refresh rates that improves the motion blur even more. I hope in the future Pioneer would offer a 120HZ Plasma, this would be good for 60HZ video based material being doubled to 120HZ. Plasma looks excellent at 60HZ and 72HZ but it could look even better at 120HZ.

HDTV1080P · 03-03-2008, 06:38 PM

Here is a link to the 2008 HDTV Technology Face Off article

It is amazing that the Pioneer PDP-5080HD 720P (768P actual) Plasma display has a better picture quality compared to most 1080P displays. The ANSI contrast ratio is so good on the 720P Pioneer that it provides more overall detail to the picture quality compared to most other brands of 1080P displays without the need of resolution since most people do not seat close enough to a 1080P to see the diffrence.

Link to the electronic version of the article

http://hometheatermag.com/lcds/208hdface/index.html

Keiths Light · 03-04-2008, 08:16 PM

this thread is great.

those new 120hz toshiba lcds sound very good. well priced as well.

CassilineKnight · 03-04-2008, 08:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keiths Light

this thread is great.

those new 120hz toshiba lcds sound very good. well priced as well.

I completely agree. I'm saving up for one of those...that splash of red looks dead sexy too.

HDTV1080P · 03-06-2008, 10:12 PM

Samsung LN-T4069F and LN-T4669F LCD flat panels have been added to the list

The Samsung 69F series is exactly the same as the 71F series when it come to the true 5:5 pulldown feature. When auto motion plus is turned completely off each 24fps frame is repeated 5 times and refreshed on the screen at 120HZ without interpolating of new frames. True 5:5 pulldown. Since there is no professional review on the 69F series that mentions this true 1080P/24 feature yet the link on the main list is currently pointing to the review on the 71F series so that one can reference how the Samsung Auto Motion plus works.

dobyblue · 03-08-2008, 03:51 PM

Keep an eye out for the first tests on the -85 series from Panasonic - the operations manual states that the vertical refresh rate starts at 48Hz, which is inline with the original press release stating that the -85, -800 and -850 series will all support 24p native reproduction (48Hz - 2:2 pulldown)

HDTV1080P · 03-12-2008, 04:59 AM

JVC DLA-HD100 LCOS Front Projector refresh rate has been verified

The new April 2008 Home Theater magazine has verified that the JVC DLA-HD100 will refresh 1080P/24 material at 96HZ and 60HZ material is refreshed at 120HZ. This $8,000 projector is one of the best front projectors on the market for picture quality. The black levels and contrast ratio are better then most Front Projectors under $15,000 and the JVC will do this without an auto iris.

Quote
“Also, like the DLA-HD1, the DLA-HD100 accepts 1080p/24 sig- nals and displays them at 96 hertz with no 3:2 pulldown. And it displays 1080p/60 content at 120 Hz. The processing solution here is from Gennum, and it's terrific.”

http://hometheatermag.com/frontprojectors/408jvcdila/

Go Blue · 03-19-2008, 03:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dobyblue

Keep an eye out for the first tests on the -85 series from Panasonic - the operations manual states that the vertical refresh rate starts at 48Hz, which is inline with the original press release stating that the -85, -800 and -850 series will all support 24p native reproduction (48Hz - 2:2 pulldown)

So, is it possible that the 85 will have native 24p for Blu-ray like the 800?

HDTV1080P · 03-20-2008, 02:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by schultz

So, is it possible that the 85 will have native 24p for Blu-ray like the 800?

Short answer is one will need to wait for a professional review to verify if 1080P/24 is handled correctly on the 85 series Panasonic.
Most manufactories do a poor job of informing their customers how 1080P/24 is handled. Many times one needs to wait several months after the new display is released for a professional review to see if the product handles 1080P/24 correctly.
Pioneer is currently the only manufactory that not only labels all their spec sheets with 3:3 pulldown info but also is the only flat panel company that offers true 24fps refresh rates for all 720P and 1080P displays. All other flat panel companies only offer a select few models with true 24fps refresh rates. Every single Pioneer display every made that offers a 1080P/24 input option will display 24fps correctly on the screen at multiplies of the original frame.

HDTV1080P · 03-20-2008, 04:35 AM

The Epson PowerLite Home Cinema 1080 UB and the Epson PowerLite Pro Cinema 1080UB front projectors have been added to the list

Warning be careful when looking at the model numbers for the Epson front projectors

The older Epson PowerLite Home Cinema 1080 without the UB at the end and the Epson PowerLite Pro Cinema 1080 without the UB at the end display 1080P/24 at 60HZ. The new models that came out that have a UB at the end stand for Ultra black and have a better contrast ratio with a 48HZ refresh rate. I wish when new models are released that the name or the model number would completely change. Seeing a UB at the end of a long product name can be missed. There have not been any official reviews on these new projectors that mentions the 48HZ refresh rate but the manufactories instruction manual clearly mentions it.

Quote from page 38 of both Epson manuals
“2-2 Pull-down” “This setting will not be selectable if your DVD player does not support this mode. This mode applies only when a 24fps (frame per second) 1080P signal is being input into Component, HDMI1, or HDMI2."

Reference links
PowerLite Home Cinema 1080 UB (page 38)
http://www.aboutprojectors.com/pdf/epson-powerlite-home-cinema-1080-ub-manual.pdf

PowerLite Pro Cinema 1080 UB (page 38)
http://www.aboutprojectors.com/pdf/epson-powerlite-pro-cinema-1080-ub-manual.pdf

stockstar1138 · 03-20-2008, 04:48 AM

can somebody please explain how the Samsung 8 series don't have 1080p/24 playback, but the 6 and 7s do????

I went to the store and saw a demo of a 71 with motion enhancer on and off and when it was off it appeared to have the same type of judder my 65 series has? Personally my eyes don't think any of the Samsung LCDs have 1080p/24 playback.

HDTV1080P · 03-20-2008, 05:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stockstar1138

can somebody please explain how the Samsung 8 series don't have 1080p/24 playback, but the 6 and 7s do????

I went to the store and saw a demo of a 71 with motion enhancer on and off and when it was off it appeared to have the same type of judder my 65 series has? Personally my eyes don't think any of the Samsung LCDs have 1080p/24 playback.

Was the BLU-RAY player set to output 1080P/24? If it was not then the judder came from the player outputting 1080P/60. This 1080P/24 issue is starting to get very complicated in flat panel displays. There is some evidence starting to appear that some brands and models of displays use a 3:2 pulldown process depending on serial numbers and firmware version. In the future this list might need to include serial numbers and firmware versions.
This feature is getting so complicated that all my next flat panel purchases might be a Pioneer only since that is the only brand I know for sure offers true 1080P/24 refresh rates for all models, serial numbers, and firmware versions.

turboedguy · 03-20-2008, 05:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HDTV1080P

Was the BLU-RAY player set to output 1080P/24? If it was not then the judder came from the player outputting 1080P/60. This 1080P/24 issue is starting to get very complicated in flat panel displays. There is some evidence starting to appear that some brands and models of displays use a 3:2 pulldown process depending on serial numbers and firmware version. In the future this list might need to include serial numbers and firmware versions.
This feature is getting so complicated that all my next flat panel purchases might be a Pioneer only since that is the only brand I know for sure offers true 1080P/24 refresh rates for all models, serial numbers, and firmware versions.

I know when I got rid of my 60hz set, and bought my 71 series, I finaly got to turn on the 24fps, Huge difference. Its still no top of the line Plasma, but much better with motion, even with the 120hz off.

HDTV1080P · 03-20-2008, 05:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by turboedguy

I know when I got rid of my 60hz set, and bought my 71 series, I finaly got to turn on the 24fps, Huge difference. Its still no top of the line Plasma, but much better with motion, even with the 120hz off.

Yes some of the 120HZ Samsungs I saw had a better picture quality then most if not all 60HZ LCD screens I have seen. The new Samsungs have a good black level for LCD. The 120HZ does help with motion blur.

HDTV1080P · 03-20-2008, 07:28 AM

The Sharp LC-42D64U, LC-46D64U, and LC-52D64U have been added to the list

Warning this is a complicated issue and only certain serial numbers with firmware versions qualifies to be on the list

The Sharp LC-42D64U, LC-46D64U, and LC-52D64U all share the exact same instruction manual and the only difference between the 3 models is weight, physical dimensions, and power consumption. According to Sharp Aquos electronics engineering department the 64U series original only displayed 1080P/24 at 60HZ refresh rate. Then later on Sharp made hardware and software changes with the 64U series that allows the display to handle 24fps using the multiplies of the original frame method (48HZ).
If you are looking for a Sharp 64U series that refreshes 1080P/24 at 48HZ then you will need to make sure that the serial number on the box or the unit begins with the letter C or above (i.e. D, E, etc). Also the firmware in the display needs to have the letter S rather then U. U was used in the 60HZ models. Aquos support mentioned that older 64U displays can not be upgraded since the older sets hardware only supports 60HZ refresh rates and Sharp is not offering any hardware upgrades.

Source of information on the Sharp 64U series can be found at this link
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=13423900&postcount=142

There are also rumors that some Samsung 120HZ displays may require a firmware upgrade to bypass the 3:2 pulldown process. I have not verified if that rumor is true.

HDTV1080P · 03-20-2008, 08:44 AM

New review on the Pioneer Elite PRO-110FD Plasma TV mentions that the Kuro line by far are the best plasma screens on the planet earth

Quote
“There's no doubt about it—Pioneer's Kuro TVs are far and away the best plasmas on planet.”

All other brands of flat panels that offer true 1080P/24 refresh rates the motion feature needs to be turned off or some other setting needs to be made for 1080P/24 to be displayed properly. With the Pioneer it will always display 1080P/24 at 72HZ automatically regardless of any setting in the display. When a 1080P/24 signal is applied all smooth motion features in Pure Cinema or other settings in Pure Cinema are automatically bypassed to give a native film like image on the screen.

Some positive quotes from review

“All Pioneer TVs share a rare and important feature—the ability to display 1080p/24 at 72Hz, repeating each frame three times. This avoids 3:2 pulldown altogether and results in much smoother motion on film-based material.”

“Colors were likewise gorgeous, especially the deep blue sky, green forest, brown caribou, gray elephants, and flaming reds and oranges of fall foliage. I was very impressed with the TV's artful rendition of subtle variations of white in the polar regions.”

Some Negatives (No display is perfect)

The Pioneer Kuro is more expensive then most Plasma screens (Higher quality products most the time cost more)

This small bug was recently found in the Pioneer PRO-110FD that will hopefully be corrected with a firmware update

Quote
“A Pioneer spokesperson confirmed that I had uncovered what I can only call a bug in the Pure Cinema selection menu. The film modes are supposed to be unavailable for progressive signals, but if one is selected before sending such a signal, the display behaves unpredictably. Hopefully, Pioneer will correct this problem in the next generation (or maybe even this generation with a firmware update—hint, hint). Until then, if you routinely send progressive video to the display, leave the film mode off.”

Here is the review link on the 50 inch Elite where quotes are taken from
http://ultimateavmag.com/flatpaneldisplays/308pio110fd/index.html

Here is an older review on the 60 inch Elite model
http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2233915,00.asp

BlueThunder · 03-22-2008, 09:51 PM

I would be interested to hear peoples views on some of the new Philip's models available, e.g. "Philip's 47" LCD-TV 47PFL9632D/10 --Ambilight, Full HD, 100Hz, DVB-T--".

I think I might get one of these for my new movie room.
https://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.ph...postcount=1315

I have a link to the Philip's web-site below and one review that I found.
This brings you to the main TV selection. Filter using the "Perfect pixel HD engine" and screen size 47".
Specification:-
http://www.consumer.philips.com/cons...A_IE_CONSUMER/

Review:-
http://www.trustedreviews.com/tvs/
52" part of the latest reviews at the moment. 22nd of march.
http://www.trustedreviews.com/tvs/re...52in-LCD-TV/p1

If anyone has found another review or if there is any owners it would be great to here more about this TV.

Would anyone be overly worried about the difficult set-up needed or should it take just a little more time to get right.

Thanks

dobyblue · 03-25-2008, 04:30 PM

It looks like the -85 series do not have 48Hz 2:2 pulldown.

Sorry.

Go Blue · 03-25-2008, 04:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dobyblue

It looks like the -85 series do not have 48Hz 2:2 pulldown.

Sorry.

Any date on the -800 series then>

03-03-2008, 06:38 PM	#403
HDTV1080P Blu-ray Champion Top contributor Member since:Jan 2007 Blu-ray reviews: 205	Here is a link to the 2008 HDTV Technology Face Off article It is amazing that the Pioneer PDP-5080HD 720P (768P actual) Plasma display has a better picture quality compared to most 1080P displays. The ANSI contrast ratio is so good on the 720P Pioneer that it provides more overall detail to the picture quality compared to most other brands of 1080P displays without the need of resolution since most people do not seat close enough to a 1080P to see the diffrence. Link to the electronic version of the article http://hometheatermag.com/lcds/208hdface/index.html Last edited by HDTV1080P; 03-04-2008 at 03:59 AM. Reason: spelling

03-20-2008, 04:35 AM	#411
HDTV1080P Blu-ray Champion Top contributor Member since:Jan 2007 Blu-ray reviews: 205	The Epson PowerLite Home Cinema 1080 UB and the Epson PowerLite Pro Cinema 1080UB front projectors have been added to the list Warning be careful when looking at the model numbers for the Epson front projectors The older Epson PowerLite Home Cinema 1080 without the UB at the end and the Epson PowerLite Pro Cinema 1080 without the UB at the end display 1080P/24 at 60HZ. The new models that came out that have a UB at the end stand for Ultra black and have a better contrast ratio with a 48HZ refresh rate. I wish when new models are released that the name or the model number would completely change. Seeing a UB at the end of a long product name can be missed. There have not been any official reviews on these new projectors that mentions the 48HZ refresh rate but the manufactories instruction manual clearly mentions it. Quote from page 38 of both Epson manuals “2-2 Pull-down” “This setting will not be selectable if your DVD player does not support this mode. This mode applies only when a 24fps (frame per second) 1080P signal is being input into Component, HDMI1, or HDMI2." Reference links PowerLite Home Cinema 1080 UB (page 38) http://www.aboutprojectors.com/pdf/epson-powerlite-home-cinema-1080-ub-manual.pdf PowerLite Pro Cinema 1080 UB (page 38) http://www.aboutprojectors.com/pdf/epson-powerlite-pro-cinema-1080-ub-manual.pdf Last edited by HDTV1080P; 03-20-2008 at 05:22 AM.

03-20-2008, 08:44 AM	#417
HDTV1080P Blu-ray Champion Top contributor Member since:Jan 2007 Blu-ray reviews: 205	New review on the Pioneer Elite PRO-110FD Plasma TV mentions that the Kuro line by far are the best plasma screens on the planet earth Quote “There's no doubt about it—Pioneer's Kuro TVs are far and away the best plasmas on planet.” All other brands of flat panels that offer true 1080P/24 refresh rates the motion feature needs to be turned off or some other setting needs to be made for 1080P/24 to be displayed properly. With the Pioneer it will always display 1080P/24 at 72HZ automatically regardless of any setting in the display. When a 1080P/24 signal is applied all smooth motion features in Pure Cinema or other settings in Pure Cinema are automatically bypassed to give a native film like image on the screen. Some positive quotes from review “All Pioneer TVs share a rare and important feature—the ability to display 1080p/24 at 72Hz, repeating each frame three times. This avoids 3:2 pulldown altogether and results in much smoother motion on film-based material.” “Colors were likewise gorgeous, especially the deep blue sky, green forest, brown caribou, gray elephants, and flaming reds and oranges of fall foliage. I was very impressed with the TV's artful rendition of subtle variations of white in the polar regions.” Some Negatives (No display is perfect) The Pioneer Kuro is more expensive then most Plasma screens (Higher quality products most the time cost more) This small bug was recently found in the Pioneer PRO-110FD that will hopefully be corrected with a firmware update Quote “A Pioneer spokesperson confirmed that I had uncovered what I can only call a bug in the Pure Cinema selection menu. The film modes are supposed to be unavailable for progressive signals, but if one is selected before sending such a signal, the display behaves unpredictably. Hopefully, Pioneer will correct this problem in the next generation (or maybe even this generation with a firmware update—hint, hint). Until then, if you routinely send progressive video to the display, leave the film mode off.” Here is the review link on the 50 inch Elite where quotes are taken from http://ultimateavmag.com/flatpaneldisplays/308pio110fd/index.html Here is an older review on the 60 inch Elite model http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2233915,00.asp Last edited by HDTV1080P; 03-20-2008 at 08:54 AM.

03-22-2008, 09:51 PM	#418
BlueThunder Member Member since:Oct 2007 Location:Ireland	philips 24fps europe I would be interested to hear peoples views on some of the new Philip's models available, e.g. "Philip's 47" LCD-TV 47PFL9632D/10 --Ambilight, Full HD, 100Hz, DVB-T--". I think I might get one of these for my new movie room. https://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.ph...postcount=1315 I have a link to the Philip's web-site below and one review that I found. This brings you to the main TV selection. Filter using the "Perfect pixel HD engine" and screen size 47". Specification:- http://www.consumer.philips.com/cons...A_IE_CONSUMER/ Review:- http://www.trustedreviews.com/tvs/ 52" part of the latest reviews at the moment. 22nd of march. http://www.trustedreviews.com/tvs/re...52in-LCD-TV/p1 If anyone has found another review or if there is any owners it would be great to here more about this TV. Would anyone be overly worried about the difficult set-up needed or should it take just a little more time to get right. Thanks Last edited by BlueThunder; 03-22-2008 at 11:25 PM.

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02-28-2008, 02:22 AM	#401
sicofante New Member Member since:Feb 2008	I'm a plasma fan and I'm very interested in the upcoming Panasonic models. I read here that they'll be showing 24p content at 48 Hz and I have a question about it: Is 48 Hz enough for flicker free pictures?

03-04-2008, 08:16 PM	#404
Keiths Light Active Member Member since:Jan 2008 Location:Canada Blu-ray reviews:1	this thread is great. those new 120hz toshiba lcds sound very good. well priced as well.

03-06-2008, 10:12 PM	#406
HDTV1080P Blu-ray Champion Top contributor Member since:Jan 2007 Blu-ray reviews: 205	Samsung LN-T4069F and LN-T4669F LCD flat panels have been added to the list The Samsung 69F series is exactly the same as the 71F series when it come to the true 5:5 pulldown feature. When auto motion plus is turned completely off each 24fps frame is repeated 5 times and refreshed on the screen at 120HZ without interpolating of new frames. True 5:5 pulldown. Since there is no professional review on the 69F series that mentions this true 1080P/24 feature yet the link on the main list is currently pointing to the review on the 71F series so that one can reference how the Samsung Auto Motion plus works.

03-08-2008, 03:51 PM	#407
dobyblue Super Moderator Top contributor Member since:Jul 2006 Location:Ontario, Canada Home Theater Gallery:71 4K collection:55 Blu-ray collection:655 Blu-ray reviews: 15	Keep an eye out for the first tests on the -85 series from Panasonic - the operations manual states that the vertical refresh rate starts at 48Hz, which is inline with the original press release stating that the -85, -800 and -850 series will all support 24p native reproduction (48Hz - 2:2 pulldown)

03-12-2008, 04:59 AM	#408
HDTV1080P Blu-ray Champion Top contributor Member since:Jan 2007 Blu-ray reviews: 205	JVC DLA-HD100 LCOS Front Projector refresh rate has been verified The new April 2008 Home Theater magazine has verified that the JVC DLA-HD100 will refresh 1080P/24 material at 96HZ and 60HZ material is refreshed at 120HZ. This $8,000 projector is one of the best front projectors on the market for picture quality. The black levels and contrast ratio are better then most Front Projectors under $15,000 and the JVC will do this without an auto iris. Quote “Also, like the DLA-HD1, the DLA-HD100 accepts 1080p/24 sig- nals and displays them at 96 hertz with no 3:2 pulldown. And it displays 1080p/60 content at 120 Hz. The processing solution here is from Gennum, and it's terrific.” http://hometheatermag.com/frontprojectors/408jvcdila/

03-20-2008, 04:48 AM	#412
stockstar1138 Banned Member since:Apr 2007	can somebody please explain how the Samsung 8 series don't have 1080p/24 playback, but the 6 and 7s do???? I went to the store and saw a demo of a 71 with motion enhancer on and off and when it was off it appeared to have the same type of judder my 65 series has? Personally my eyes don't think any of the Samsung LCDs have 1080p/24 playback.

03-20-2008, 07:28 AM	#416
HDTV1080P Blu-ray Champion Top contributor Member since:Jan 2007 Blu-ray reviews: 205	The Sharp LC-42D64U, LC-46D64U, and LC-52D64U have been added to the list Warning this is a complicated issue and only certain serial numbers with firmware versions qualifies to be on the list The Sharp LC-42D64U, LC-46D64U, and LC-52D64U all share the exact same instruction manual and the only difference between the 3 models is weight, physical dimensions, and power consumption. According to Sharp Aquos electronics engineering department the 64U series original only displayed 1080P/24 at 60HZ refresh rate. Then later on Sharp made hardware and software changes with the 64U series that allows the display to handle 24fps using the multiplies of the original frame method (48HZ). If you are looking for a Sharp 64U series that refreshes 1080P/24 at 48HZ then you will need to make sure that the serial number on the box or the unit begins with the letter C or above (i.e. D, E, etc). Also the firmware in the display needs to have the letter S rather then U. U was used in the 60HZ models. Aquos support mentioned that older 64U displays can not be upgraded since the older sets hardware only supports 60HZ refresh rates and Sharp is not offering any hardware upgrades. Source of information on the Sharp 64U series can be found at this link http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=13423900&postcount=142 There are also rumors that some Samsung 120HZ displays may require a firmware upgrade to bypass the 3:2 pulldown process. I have not verified if that rumor is true.

03-25-2008, 04:30 PM	#419
dobyblue Super Moderator Top contributor Member since:Jul 2006 Location:Ontario, Canada Home Theater Gallery:71 4K collection:55 Blu-ray collection:655 Blu-ray reviews: 15	It looks like the -85 series do not have 48Hz 2:2 pulldown. Sorry.

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