Panasonic TC-P50G20 June 2010 Home Theater magazine review
** Flicker and a decreased brightness with 48HZ mode (No 96HZ flicker free mode)**
According to the Home Theater magazine review the G20 series uses a 48HZ refresh rate that causes a flicker and reduced brightness on the screen (Issue occurs when the 48HZ mode is turned on in the G20 while watching a 1080p/24 Blu-ray disc). Most likely one of the reasons why the Panasonic reduces its brightness when in the 48HZ mode is to reduce the flicker to a minimum. The brighter the screen the more noticeable the flicker is. In the movie theater and on most Front Projectors 48HZ appears flicker free since the brightness is a lot less compared to plasma and LCD flat screens. Panasonic does make true 96HZ flicker free displays that bypass the 3:2 pulldown process when watching 1080p/24 Blu-ray discs but it costs more money for those models. One has to use the 60HZ mode with 3:2 pulldown to get rid of the flicker and keep the brightness normal for the G20 series. The black levels on the Panasonic TC-P50G20 display is also disappointing when compared to the discontinued 2008 model Pioneer plasmas.
Here are a select few quotes from the Home Theater magazine review
"For 1080p/24 sources, a 24p Direct in setting gives you the choice of either 48 hertz (frames per second) playback (each 24-fps frame flashes twice, with no 3:2 pulldown) or 60 Hz (the set converts the 24-fps source to 60 fps with 3:2 pulldown). With earlier Panasonic sets, the 24-fps setting decreased brightness and added visible flicker on scenes with large expanses of white or a uniform color (a bright blue or clouded sky, for example). The flicker was relatively subtle here, but I noticed the reduced brightness. Because of this, I did much of my viewing in the 60-Hz mode. The increased judder that the 3:2 pulldown caused didn’t bother me."
"Rather, my disappointment came from excessive expectations. Rumors arose in the past year (now unofficially confirmed) that many of Pioneer’s KURO engineers had moved over to Panasonic when Pioneer got out of the video business. Based on that, we—and other video enthusiasts—were hopeful that Panasonic’s Infinite Black technology meant that KURO was back, with only the name changed. But for this year at least, that is definitely not the case—at least not in the G20 line."
"It was probably wishful thinking on my part to expect a $1,500 set to offer the sort of performance that once commanded a $5,000 price. Set makers this year, including Panasonic, are putting most of their engineering resources into 3D. But for the future, we can hope that Panasonic will give us the true black-level break-through we know it’s capable of."
** The CNET review of the G20/G25 series says it is "essentially unwatchable" in the 48HZ mode **
The following are select quotes from the CNET review
" cannot properly handle 1080p/24 sources"
"The 48Hz option promises 1080p/24 compatibility, but introduces unwatchable flicker."
" As we noted above the G20/25 series is not blessed with the 96Hz refresh rate found on the step-up VT20/25 models, so as we observed with Panasonic's predecessor plasmas from 2009, the G models cannot properly handle 1080p/24 sources. We confirmed this with our favorite scene for such a test, the flyover of the Intrepid from "I Am Legend," where we observed the characteristic stuttering motion of 2:3 pull-down (as opposed to the correct cadence of film we observed on the V10) when the G20/25 was set to its default 60Hz mode under "24p direct in." Switching to the other option, 48Hz, caused the display to flicker significantly and become essentially unwatchable, especially in brighter scenes."
The Panasonic G25 and G20 series have been added to the list
Since the G25 and G20 series according to CNET cannot handle 1080p/24 sources correctly due to the flicker issue at 48HZ one could make the argument that those displays do not belong on the list. Maybe I should make a policy change in the future to only include displays on the list that are flicker free. Currently there is no policy like that in place so the 2010 Panasonic G20 and G25 series have been added to the list with a flicker warning in red.
The Panasonic VT25 and VT20 series will not be added to the list since it uses 60HZ for each eye in 3-D mode
The Panasonic VT25 and VT20 series will refresh 3D material at 120HZ on the screen. Then the 3D glasses splits the 120HZ refresh rate into 60 frames per second which is 3:2 pulldown judder for each eye. I am hoping that future plasma displays in 2011 or 2012 might use 144HZ or higher refresh rate for 3D (Currently all consumer 3-D displays use 60HZ for each eye). It is unknown if Panasonic or any other manufactory will make a future display that bypasses 3:2 pulldown when in the 3-D mode. 144fps is used in many 3-D theaters and if Panasonic were to use a 144HZ refresh rate on future plasmas then the LCD shutter glasses would split the signal and provide 72HZ for each eye to maintain the correct 3-D cadence of film.
The Panasonic VT25 and VT20 will automatically refresh 3D Blu-ray signals at 120HZ (60HZ each eye) regardless of menu settings. 2-D 1080p/24 Blu-ray signals have a choice in the menu to be refresh at 48HZ, 60HZ, and 96HZ. CNET mentions that the 48HZ mode has a flicker and the Panasonic VT25 manual also mentions that a flicker might be seen at 48HZ. 60HZ mode adds 3:2 pulldown judder. The 96HZ mode is the best setting since it provides the correct cadence of film without 3:2 judder and it also is flicker free.
It should be mentioned that if the Panasonic VT25 or VT20 series were a 2-D only display that it would have made the list since it displays 1080p/24 material at 96HZ flicker free.A 3-D display is required to bypass the 60HZ 3:2 pulldown process in both 3-D mode and 2-D mode to make the list (No 3-D displays yet have made the list).
According to Home Theater magazine and the CNET review the Pioneer 2008 Kuro's still have deeper black levels and a overall better 2-D picture quality when compared to the top of the line 2010 Panasonic VT25 series. It should be mentioned that the Panasonic VT25 series is one of the best displays in 2010 for picture quality even though it still is not as good as a Pioneer Kuro in 2-D mode.
** If Panasonic one day in the future could improve their black level performance to at least match the 2008 Pioneer plasmas and also offer a 144fps or higher frame rate for 3-D mode then Panasonic could become the technology leader in flat screen picture quality **
The following are select quotes from the July 2010 Home Theater magazine review
"The 50-inch Panasonic TC-P50VT25 is the smallest of the four sets in the all-3D VT25 series. Apart from 3D, an optional Network camera (not tested here), and a few added features including a 96-hertz setting for playback of 1080p/24 sources, its features are nearly identical to those in the Panasonic TC-P50G20 (HT, August 2010)."
"Panasonic 3D sets don’t offer a 2D-to-3D conversion feature—a simulation of 3D from a 2D source. The company appears to feel that only the true 3D experience can make the format a long-term success rather than a short-term gimmick, and that’s certainly a defendable position."
" I compared the Panasonic side by side with my reference Pioneer Elite KURO PRO-141FD plasma. While the Panasonic’s reduced motion lag was relatively subtle on most sources, it was clearly visible with material that was mastered specifically to test for this problem."
" The relatively bright settings I used for the best 3D image on the Panasonic also suggest the use of caution to minimize the risk of plasma burn-in."
"When it comes to black level and contrast, the Pioneer remains the champ—though by surprisingly little. When I measured it after about 150 hours of use, the Panasonic TC-P50VT25 produced the best black level we’ve yet seen or measured on a non-KURO plasma. At 0.004 foot-lamberts in 2D mode, it’s half the level we measured last month on Panasonic’s 2D TC-P50G20 (0.008 ft-L). On its 2D sets, Panasonic calls its current black level technology Infinite Black, and Infinite Black Pro for its 3D models. If our sample is representative, the Pro designation isn’t just added hyperbole."
"Assessed side by side with the Pioneer KURO, on scenes averaging from just below mid-brightness to bright, the Panasonic appeared to have even more contrast than the Pioneer. The Pioneer clearly pulled ahead in the most difficult, dark material, due largely to its as yet unchallenged black level (for a plasma, remeasured at 0.001 ft-L after more than a year of near-daily use). Nevertheless, Panasonic is moving in the right direction. Apart from just a trace of grayness that’s visible in the darkest scenes and in a fully darkened room, I was very impressed by its overall black level and contrast."
"The Panasonic TC-P50VT25 breaks new ground in the reduction of motion lag and in black level for currently available plasmas."
Sony BDP-S570 appears to handle 3-D Blu-ray discs better then the Panasonic DMP-BDT300 and DMP-BDT350
" When I ran chapter 11 of Coraline on the new Sony BDP-S570 Blu-ray 3D player, the Sony tracked cleanly through the entire chapter. We only had a single copy of this disc, but the fact that the Sony sailed through the same chapter of Coraline that caused problems on three different Panasonic players suggests that either the Panasonic players are at fault, or at minimum that the Sony is better at coping with potential problem discs."
"The chapter-skip function on both Panasonic players is also agonizingly slow on Blu-ray 3D Discs. The Sony’s 3D chapter skip is almost instantaneous."
The following are select quotes from the CNET Panasonic VT25 series review
"In its favor, the TC-P50VT20/25's 96Hz refresh rate delivered the correct cadence when fed 1080p/24 material, as proven by the film-like look of the deck of the Intrepid during the helicopter flyover from "I Am Legend"--and by similarly correct cadence in numerous moving-camera shots from "Avatar." The 60Hz mode, as expected, showed the characteristic stuttering motion of 2:3 pulldown, whereas the 48Hz mode exhibited the same kind of flicker we saw on the G20."
"More importantly, the VT20/25 models include a 96Hz refresh rate, which allows the TV to properly handle 1080p/24 content--something the step-down Panasonics cannot."
"That said, its color doesn't quite equal that of our reference, and we did experience some artifacts in the 1080p/24-friendly 96Hz mode, but the VT20/25 still outperforms the company's other plasmas, and just about every other TV you can buy today."
"The VT20/25 delivered superb black level performance, falling short of only the (discontinued) Pioneer in our lineup. In many scenes it visibly surpassed, to a greater or lesser extent, the LED sets and the other plasmas, including the Panasonic G20."
"Details in shadows on the high-end Panasonic looked excellent, with more realism than on any of the others aside from the Pioneer."
" On the other hand, we were surprised to find that the VT20/25 evinced false contouring artifacts in 96Hz mode. They were relatively rare, but certainly obvious when we saw them, which was only in transitions between bright and dark areas that moved across the screen. We first noticed it in Chapter 12 (47:25), where the glow of the pods illuminating the Omaticaya council showed banding contours as opposed to the smooth gradation from light to dark seen on the other displays. Similar bands were visible in the torch Neytiri extinguishes in Chapter 11 (36:30). No adjustment we tried seemed to affect the issue, aside from switching back to 60Hz, which made the contouring much less noticeable (and no worse than on the other sets). In our view the correct cadence is worth the tradeoff for occasional contouring artifacts, so we kept the set at 96Hz for movies, but we wish we didn't have to make that decision. We also looked at the V10 from last year and saw similar contouring in 96Hz, which we missed in our initial review."
HDTV10180p: Please feel free to delete my thread with your answer, but where do the Samsung 3D plasmas (C7000 and C8000) fit in in regards to properly displaying 1080/24p content whether in 3D or non-3D mode?
Does it get lumped in with the issues Samsung 3D LED LCDs have or with issues the Panasonic plasmas have?
The Samsungs in general with the 3-D feature will properly display 2-D content at multiplies of the original 2-D frame rate. No manufactory yet makes a 3D consumer display that will display 3-D signals at multiplies of the original 3-D frame rate. Both Samsung and Panasonic use 60HZ for each eye. Here are some links to this issue: My hopes are that in 2011 or 2012 some manufactory will release a 3-D display that bypasses 6:4 pulldown (3:2 pulldown for each eye).
The Panasonic VT25 series will not be added to the list since it uses 60HZ for each eye in 3-D mode just like all current 2010 3-D displays
September 2010 Sound and Vision review of the Panasonic TC-P50VT25
It should be mentioned that if the Panasonic VT25 series were a 2-D only display that it would have made the list since it displays 1080p/24 material at 96HZ flicker free.A 3-D display is required to bypass the 60HZ 3:2 pulldown process in both 3-D mode and 2-D mode to make the list (No 3-D displays yet have made the list).
I am hoping that future plasma displays in 2011 or 2012 might use 144HZ or higher refresh rate for 3D (Currently all consumer 3-D displays use 60HZ for each eye).
In the September 2010 Sound and Vision magazine on pages 48-51 is a review on the Panasonic TC-P50VT25 3D plasma TV. According to the Sound and Vision review the Panasonic VT25 series black levels are not as good as the discontinued 2008 Pioneer Kuro plasma models.
The Panasonic VT25 series will automatically refresh 3D Blu-ray signals at 120HZ (60HZ each eye) regardless of menu settings. 2-D 1080p/24 Blu-ray signals have a choice in the menu to be refresh at 48HZ, 60HZ, and 96HZ. The Sound and Vision magazine mentions that the 48HZ mode has a visible flicker and the Panasonic VT25 manual also mentions that a flicker might be seen at 48HZ. 60HZ mode adds 3:2 pulldown judder. The 96HZ mode is the best setting since it provides the correct cadence of film without 3:2 judder and it also is flicker free.
The following are select quotes from the September 2010 Sound and Vision magazine (review located on pages 48-51)
“Previous Panasonic plasmas mostly provided only two screen-refresh options – 48 Hz and 60 Hz – for handling a 1080p/24 input signal from a Blu-ray Disc player. But the trouble with those modes was that 48 Hz created visible flickering in bright areas of images, while 60 Hz introduced the potential for film-pulldown-related artifacts like picture “stutter.” But with the VT25’s 96 Hz 24p Direct in mode selected, Blu-ray images look both solid and smooth.”
“The Panasonic’s black level and shadow detail were also impressive.”
“I must say, though, given my experience at the 2010 Consumer Electronics Show looking at demos of Panasonic’s Infinite Black Pro – a suite of black-level enhancing technologies that this TV features – I expected to see even deeper blacks and punchier contrast. That’s not to say that the Panasonic TC-P50VT25 3D set’s blacks were unsatisfying, but they do fall short of the Pioneer KURO plasma –like levels that I recall appreciating in Panasonic’s demo.”
October 2010 Home Theater Magazine review on the DreamVision StarLight 1 LCOS Projector
On pages 66-68, and page 70 of the October 2010 Home Theater Magazine is a review on the DreamVision StarLight 1 LCOS Projector. The StarLight 1, StarLight 2, and StarLight 3 electronics are based on JVC 2010 LCOS Front Projector technology and according to the Home Theater review the performance and basic features are the same as the 2010 JVC projectors. The cosmetics of the DreamVision LCOS Front Projectors are different from the JVC. DreamVision purchased the rights to use JVC LCOS technology and attempted to make the projectors look more attractive. When Pioneer was in the Front Projector business a couple of years ago they also made a Front Projector that was based on JVC technology. JVC LCOS Front Projectors are the best consumer projectors in the world in terms of black levels and overall picture quality for those that want deep blacks.
The entire DreamVision Starlight series offers a true film quality 4:4 pulldown mode at 96HZ when a 1080p/24 signal is received. Crystal Motion Drive must be turned off in order for the 96HZ repeating frame method to work. If Crystal Motion Drive is turned on the projector will use frame interpolation at 120HZ which makes film based material look like artificial video.
StarLight 1 32,000:1 Contrast Ratio
StarLight 2 50,000:1 Contrast Ratio
StarLight 3 70,000:1 Contrast Ratio
The following are select quotes from pages 66-68, and page 70 of the October 2010 Home Theater Review
“With Crystal Motion Drive off (which is where I left it), the Starlight1 simply repeats a 24-fps source three times for a refresh rate of 96 Hz. It repeats a 60-fps source once for a 120-Hz refresh.”
“The StarLight1 offers 120-hertz operation with frame interpolation in a feature that Dream Vision calls Crystal Motion Drive. This process is popular in many modern displays under a variety of names. It produces smoother motion that pleases some viewers. But while it can be helpful on video-based sources, it produces a too-fluid look on movies that others, like me, don’t like at all.”
“There are three projectors in the StarLight line. All of them are based on the 2010 range of JVC LCOS projectors, and the performance and basic features appear to be the same for the equivalent StarLight/JVC models. But the aesthetics are different.”
** The CNET review of the G20/G25 series says it is "essentially unwatchable" in the 48HZ mode **
The following are select quotes from the CNET review
" cannot properly handle 1080p/24 sources"
"The 48Hz option promises 1080p/24 compatibility, but introduces unwatchable flicker."
" As we noted above the G20/25 series is not blessed with the 96Hz refresh rate found on the step-up VT20/25 models, so as we observed with Panasonic's predecessor plasmas from 2009, the G models cannot properly handle 1080p/24 sources. We confirmed this with our favorite scene for such a test, the flyover of the Intrepid from "I Am Legend," where we observed the characteristic stuttering motion of 2:3 pull-down (as opposed to the correct cadence of film we observed on the V10) when the G20/25 was set to its default 60Hz mode under "24p direct in." Switching to the other option, 48Hz, caused the display to flicker significantly and become essentially unwatchable, especially in brighter scenes."
Strange how so many owners don't seem to find it unwatchable. Perhaps observing several seconds and making your mind up versus actually watching a movie is where the problem lies.
This list is only for people that want to watch Blu-ray film content at multiplies of the original frame rate without 3:2 pulldown and no frame interpolation. Also this thread most likely will not be updated much longer since it takes too much time to read all the instruction manuals, reviews, and to write companies regarding the true cinematic frame rate feature.
For the past few months this thread could have used a few more updates but I have not had the time. I have been planning on discontinuing this thread for a few months now since there is too many 2D displays to keep up to date. The quality and accuracy on the thread is my most important goal. If I do not have time to keep it up to date then someone else is welcome to take over.
Maybe when and if 3D displays start offering 3D content at multiplies of the original 3D frame rate I might make a new list that includes 3-D displays only. All the new high-end 2D flat panel displays offer 3-D as a standard feature but with 60HZ for each eye instead of 72HZ for each eye. Back in 2006 and 2007 it was a lot easier to maintain the list but now 120HZ 2D displays with 5:5 pulldown is starting to become a standard feature for LCD flat panel.
This list is only for people that want to watch Blu-ray film content at multiplies of the original frame rate without 3:2 pulldown and no frame interpolation.
Yes, like 99% of the Blu-ray's people watch on their VT25's.
I have a quick question though. I see the trend for LCD's to mostly be displays with 120hz or 240hz which do an even pulldown, but you have some sets with 60hz native refresh rate (the LG LH30 set) that passed.
Has there been any info whether the Sony KDL-EX400 line also does a proper pulldown? I know the EX500 line is on this list, it is a 120hz set though. I would be very upset, since I went with the EX400 as I thought this and the EX500 were both nearly identical aside from the 120hz refresh rate and the swivel base. Is it possible that it does a proper pulldown through a 48hz refresh rate since it claims to have the same 24p support same as the EX500 line? (24p True Cinema™ Technology : Yes)
If this has been posted elsewhere, I apologize, but it would be very appreciated if you could direct me to a link with this info! Thanks!
P.S. I don't know if this helps at all to determine if this set does a true 24p, but when I'm connected through my HTPC (through my ATI 4890 video card and a DVI-HDMI cable), I can select a refresh rate of 24hz and 60hz at 1080p. I had been using 24hz to playback movies encoded at 23.98, and I was under the impression that this meant it actually is outputting at 24p, since at this refresh rate the TV even says it's outputting at 1080/24p.
I have a quick question though. I see the trend for LCD's to mostly be displays with 120hz or 240hz which do an even pulldown, but you have some sets with 60hz native refresh rate (the LG LH30 set) that passed.
Has there been any info whether the Sony KDL-EX400 line also does a proper pulldown? I know the EX500 line is on this list, it is a 120hz set though. I would be very upset, since I went with the EX400 as I thought this and the EX500 were both nearly identical aside from the 120hz refresh rate and the swivel base. Is it possible that it does a proper pulldown through a 48hz refresh rate since it claims to have the same 24p support same as the EX500 line? (24p True Cinema™ Technology : Yes)
If this has been posted elsewhere, I apologize, but it would be very appreciated if you could direct me to a link with this info! Thanks!
P.S. I don't know if this helps at all to determine if this set does a true 24p, but when I'm connected through my HTPC (through my ATI 4890 video card and a DVI-HDMI cable), I can select a refresh rate of 24hz and 60hz at 1080p. I had been using 24hz to playback movies encoded at 23.98, and I was under the impression that this meant it actually is outputting at 24p, since at this refresh rate the TV even says it's outputting at 1080/24p.
No consumer display or cinema movie projector displays native 24fps at 24fps since there would be an unwatchable flicker on the screen. In the movie theater 2D movies are shot at 24fps and flashed on the screen at 48fps, 72fps, or higher multiplies of 24fps. When the info button on a TV or consumer display says 1080p/24 it only means that the signal it is receiving is 1080p/24. A consumer display when receiving 1080p/24 signal will either convert the image to 48HZ, 72HZ, 96HZ,120HZ, or 240HZ to maintain the smooth film quality look or it will convert the image to 60HZ with 3:2 pulldown judder.
When Sony says “24p True Cinema” that just means the display will accept a 1080p/24 signal. It does not mean the display will display the signal at multiplies of the original frame rate.
There are some 60HZ models on the list from LG (spec sheet only), Sony (review), and other brands that claim that they will also support 48HZ when a 1080p/24 signal is received. Sometimes the accuracy in companies spec sheets for 60HZ displays are incorrect and they do not really display at 48HZ when a 1080p/24 signal is received (Those displays get removed from the list when and if the inaccuracy is discovered).
According to page 46 of the Sony KDL-EX400 instruction manual the display has a native 60HZ refresh rate. It does not appear that the Sony KDL-EX400 will display 1080p/24 signals at 48HZ since there is no documentation to support it. Some 48HZ flat panels are so bright compared to a ceiling mounted front projector. The bright image sometimes is unwatchable or has a visible flicker at 48HZ on some flat panel screens. Most manufactories of flat panels due to a flicker issue no longer make 48HZ displays anymore. Ceiling mounted Front Projectors at 48HZ generally do not have the flicker problem since the screen is not as bright compared to a flat panel. For those consumers that want true 24fps feature on a flat panel, a 72HZ or higher refresh rate will provide flicker free viewing for 2D viewing.
Now just because the Sony KDL-EX400 only offers a 60HZ refresh rate does not mean it’s a bad display, all it means is that you will experience a small amount of judder during camera pans and fast moving scenes that are film based. Many people have been watching 60HZ displays for decades. Your Sony KDL-EX400 is still going to provide the 1080P quality from Blu-ray movies but only with a minor amount of judder during camera pans, etc. There are many consumers that are happy with their 1080P 60HZ displays in terms of picture quality and they have no desire to upgrade to a 120HZ or 240HZ display for a small picture quality improvement (assuming all other feature are the same). Deep black levels, ANSI contrast ratios, and shadow details are more important features when comparing displays.
No consumer display or cinema movie projector displays native 24fps at 24fps since there would be an unwatchable flicker on the screen. In the movie theater 2D movies are shot at 24fps and flashed on the screen at 48fps, 72fps, or higher multiplies of 24fps. When the info button on a TV or consumer display says 1080p/24 it only means that the signal it is receiving is 1080p/24. A consumer display when receiving 1080p/24 signal will either convert the image to 48HZ, 72HZ, 96HZ,120HZ, or 240HZ to maintain the smooth film quality look or it will convert the image to 60HZ with 3:2 pulldown judder.
When Sony says “24p True Cinema” that just means the display will accept a 1080p/24 signal. It does not mean the display will display the signal at multiplies of the original frame rate.
There are some 60HZ models on the list from LG (spec sheet only), Sony (review), and other brands that claim that they will also support 48HZ when a 1080p/24 signal is received. Sometimes the accuracy in companies spec sheets for 60HZ displays are incorrect and they do not really display at 48HZ when a 1080p/24 signal is received (Those displays get removed from the list when and if the inaccuracy is discovered).
According to page 46 of the Sony KDL-EX400 instruction manual the display has a native 60HZ refresh rate. It does not appear that the Sony KDL-EX400 will display 1080p/24 signals at 48HZ since there is no documentation to support it. Some 48HZ flat panels are so bright compared to a ceiling mounted front projector. The bright image sometimes is unwatchable or has a visible flicker at 48HZ on some flat panel screens. Most manufactories of flat panels due to a flicker issue no longer make 48HZ displays anymore. Ceiling mounted Front Projectors at 48HZ generally do not have the flicker problem since the screen is not as bright compared to a flat panel. For those consumers that want true 24fps feature on a flat panel, a 72HZ or higher refresh rate will provide flicker free viewing for 2D viewing.
Now just because the Sony KDL-EX400 only offers a 60HZ refresh rate does not mean it’s a bad display, all it means is that you will experience a small amount of judder during camera pans and fast moving scenes that are film based. Many people have been watching 60HZ displays for decades. Your Sony KDL-EX400 is still going to provide the 1080P quality from Blu-ray movies but only with a minor amount of judder during camera pans, etc. There are many consumers that are happy with their 1080P 60HZ displays in terms of picture quality and they have no desire to upgrade to a 120HZ or 240HZ display for a small picture quality improvement (assuming all other feature are the same). Deep black levels, ANSI contrast ratios, and shadow details are more important features when comparing displays.
Thanks for the detailed explanation. Truth be told, I haven't really noticed judder while watching blu-ray's or HD files through my computer. I of course wanted to have the best experience possible so this kind of disappointed me.
So in essence, me switching to 24hz when outputting and watching videos through my HTPC to my TV does nothing and everything would look just as well with me running it at 60hz? Don't quite get why the option would even be there then.
Thanks for the detailed explanation. Truth be told, I haven't really noticed judder while watching blu-ray's or HD files through my computer. I of course wanted to have the best experience possible so this kind of disappointed me.
So in essence, me switching to 24hz when outputting and watching videos through my HTPC to my TV does nothing and everything would look just as well with me running it at 60hz? Don't quite get why the option would even be there then.
There is something else you should know. All current in production standalone Blu-ray players offer a 1080p/24 menu option but all computer Blu-ray player software packages only offer 1080P at 60HZ with 3:2 pulldown. All Blu-ray player computer software that I have seen has no menu option for 24fps. The Blu-ray player software uses 3:2 pulldown and sends 60HZ to the graphics card. Some graphics cards will do a reverse 3:2 pulldown and output 1080P at 24HZ. Instead of the computer encoding 3:2 pulldown and then the graphics card doing a reverse 3:2 pulldown it would be better if Blu-ray computer software offered a menu option to turn on 24fps just like all modern day standalone Blu-ray players do. Bypassing the 3:2 pulldown process completely is the best option.
The Sony XBR-52HX909 might display 3D 1080P signals at 48HZ for each eye (192HZ 3D operation instead of 240HZ according to review)
So far every 3-D plasma and 3-D LCD panel reviewed up until now has used 60 fps for each eye. 3D plasmas operate at 120HZ (60HZ for each eye) and 3-D 240HZ LCD’s after the black frame insertion operate at 60Hz for each eye. Basically 6:4 pulldown judder (3:2 pulldown for each eye).
If the October Widescreen review is correct then the Sony XBR-52HX909 might display 3-D signals without 3:2 pulldown. It should be noted that professional reviews can sometimes have incorrect information.
Perhaps the Sony XBR-52HX909 does display 48HZ for each eye but there is still black frame insertion. The review also mentioned a flicker in 3-D mode for some scenes. In the movie theater 3-D films are flashed on the screen at multiplies of 48fps. In general a minimum of 144fps is used in the movie theaters which is equal to 72HZ for each eye. Currently all home 3-D technologies have a lower fps compared to what is seen in the movie theater. 60HZ for each eye and 48HZ for each eye are not ideal for 3-D. Hopefully in the future we will see 3-D technologies in the Home that will offer 72HZ per each eye or higher to give consumers film quality 3-D effects without 3:2 pulldown and without flicker issues. The other day I was testing a 3-D plasma and I noticed a small amount of flicker in 3-D mode. When the room is darker the flicker was less noticeable. There is still much improvement that is needed for consumer 3-D displays. The black frame insertion for LCD displays is needed since LCD pixels are not fast enough. Hopefully one day black frames can be eliminated as pixel response times improve in LCD displays.
Here is a few quotes from page 36 of the October 2010 Widescreen review magazine regarding the Sony XBR-52HX909 (Entire review located on pages 36-47):
Quotes
“Since every format for consumer video is an even fraction of 240 Hz, you can display just anything by flashing frames in multiplies of 24 or 30. Three-D images need to be flashed in multiplies of 48 since each eye gets 24 fps from Blu-ray 3D movies and shows.”
“Sony inserts a black frame between each image in a 3-D mode. So the sequence would be like this: right eye image, black frame, left eye image, black frame, right eye image, etc. 24p movies are displayed with the panel operating at 192 Hz – 48 left eye frame flashes, 48 right eye frame flashes, and 96 black frames per second). 30p60i video 3-D sources are displayed with the panel operating at 240 Hz – 60 flashes for each eye and 120 black frames per second.“
The Panasonic TC-P50VT25 gets a bad review in the October 2010 Widescreen review magazine do to many issues including a unwatchable flicker at 48HZ and even a flicker issue at 96HZ according to the review
The Panasonic VT25 series will not be added to the list since it uses 3:2 pulldown 60HZ for each eye when in 3-D mode (120HZ).
Quotes:
“…the 48 Hz mode (also in some 2009 Panasonic models) flickers so badly, I doubt anybody on the planet could find it useful for anything.”
“96Hz mode produced both contouring artifacts and flickering.”
“Interesting, contouring is less in 60 Hz mode, and in the unwatchable 48 Hz mode”
Since October 1992 Widescreen Review has been writing very in depth professional reviews. The Widescreen Review magazine reviewers are not afraid to write negative reviews on consumer video and audio products that have problems and issues The Widescreen Review magazine contains much more details compared to other publications. For example the October 2010 issue is over 88 pages long and full of very detailed reviews. For anyone interested in a subscription to Widescreen Review magazine click on the following link
The following are select word for word quotes from the October 2010 Widescreen review magazine (Detailed review located on pages 25-35)
“I usually find flicker in plasma displays to be fleeting and confined to some specific image content. However, the VT25 set a new high-water mark for flicker…the 48 Hz mode (also in some 2009 Panasonic models) flickers so badly, I doubt anybody on the planet could find it useful for anything. You’d think 96 Hz on a plasma would be incredible…here it’s not. You see flicker in places it doesn’t happen in 60 Hz mode, and it happens too often. It’s nothing like 48-Hz mode, but it still flickers too often to be enjoyable. 96 Hz mode also introduces contouring…that stair-step effect in fades from dark-to-light or light-to-dark, could be a color fade or a gray fade. This generally happens when you remove bits from video. With our slightly less than 8-full-bits consumer video format, throwing away even 1 bit is going to introduce contouring by decreasing the number of available shades of red, green, and blue. Interesting, contouring is less in 60 Hz mode, and in the unwatchable 48 Hz mode, contouring is just about gone completely. So something unusual is happing under the hood of the VT25 displays.”
“The added 96 Hz flicker caused objects in motion or pans to have a heightened sense of pre- and post-image ghosts. For example, the graphic title sequence in Casino Royale has a black spade moving right to left over a green background until it hits a red man. That sequence has perfectly sharp paused frames. There is no blur built-in to any of the frames as is sometimes the case with animation. With that in mind, you might expect the on-screen motion to be quite sharp and smooth, but 96Hz mode produces fairly large pre- and post-image flickering ghosts that made the motion look worse than 60 Hz mode. In fact, that motion sequence is reproduced better on a two-year old Samsung plasma panel that only operates at 60 Hz with 3:2 pulldown. Switching the VT25 to 60 Hz improves the motion by making the pre- and post-image flickering ghosts much smaller – but the VT25 somehow makes 3-2 pulldown really easy to see.”
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Sony KDL-EX400 doesn't do a proper 24p?
Linear Mode
