Spears & Munsil 4K UHD HDR Benchmark (Test Discs) May 15, 2023

[Balling]

Originally Posted by SeeMoreDigital

AVC can be encoded as progressive or interlaced. And contrary to popular belief, so can HEVC...

Yeah, but ffmpeg does not support decoding interlaced hevc yet, so no point in talking about it. There is a workaround though. https://trac.ffmpeg.org/ticket/5514

[Balling]

Originally Posted by Stacey Spears

The bitrate for AVC on UHD BD is pretty low. Not sure it supports HDR either. Need to check on that.

Here is one issue with the HD encode:

This occurs on two shots. Then several other shots has keyframe pulsing.

This is a just a bug of Microsoft player? Try mpv mpv is also bitperfect with --> RGB convertions (except some full range PQ stuff (or 10 bit 12 bit, more accurately)), while Microsoft is far from it.

[Balling]

So I found out how matrix is derived from primaries and white point. Apparently it is just the second raw of RGB --> XYZ matrix, ha. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SRGB#T...RGB_to_CIE_XYZ) and compare to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/YCbCr#...709_conversion

But what is funny is that while BT.2020 and BT.709 matrices were derived from their own primaries, BT.601 never was. 0.299, 0.587 were derived from BT.470-6 System M primaries, that is with Illuminant C (also known as NTSC 1953), not SMPTE "C, Conrac" that used D65 and was in use in DVD. Haha. The EBU PAL stuff was also not the one. JPEG also does not use System M (while using the matrix), but BT.709 and so is Netflix that uses DCI-P3 primaries for BT.2020 matrix. I updated Wikipedia about it.

References are SMPTE RP 177 and ITU-T H.273, that last one has given very accurate equations deriving two matrix coeff. from primaries and white point.

I also added theoretical matrix coeff. for BT.470-6 System B, G primaries (PAL) that was never in use! Ha. And described Chromaticity-derived luminance systems for any ICC style primaires and white point!!

What is funny is that only mpv also color manages NTSC 1953 or other primaries! wow. Others just care about the matrix which is correct only for BT.2020 in case of HDR and for BT.709 in case of sRGB.

[Stacey Spears]

I had posted a while back about a bug that I encountered on the OPPO using the upcoming disc. When you switch from Dolby Vision to HDR10 and back, the levels for Dolby Vision are now incorrect. I am fairly confident that this is the visual difference people are seeing between the OPPO and Panasonic. I purchased the Sony 800M2 this week to test. It is using the same Mediatek SOC as the OPPO and has many of the same video bugs. I am happy to report that the Sony does not have this issue!

Not sure if I mentioned it or not, but the same bug occurs when you go from 24p to 60p within Dolby Vision. So if you press the right arrow to go from CSE 24p to CSE 60p, you will see this issue. I am hoping that if you go from the menu to 60p, that it is correct. I will know once the menus are actually in place. Right now I have to use goto title and chapter to see the various patterns while David builds up the disc.

We also added one additional audio test for rattles. We have two sweeps.
1. 500-200 Hz
2. 200-15 Hz

The rattle test uses the center channel. The assumption is the center channel is most likely set to small, so it will also go through the subwoofer via bass management in order to reproduce the lowest levels.

If you find a rattle, you can use the A/B loop on the player to have it repeat the region that causes the rattle, so you can track it down and address it.

Two of the seven panning animations are virtually done. More should be completed this weekend. Once all seven are done, I can render and encode them. At that point, disc 2 will be fully encoded and ready for David to start authoring.

I am currently encoding the montage videos for disc 3. They should finish in early June.

[wxman2003]

Originally Posted by Stacey Spears

I had posted a while back about a bug that I encountered on the OPPO using the upcoming disc. When you switch from Dolby Vision to HDR10 and back, the levels for Dolby Vision are now incorrect. I am fairly confident that this is the visual difference people are seeing between the OPPO and Panasonic. I purchased the Sony 800M2 this week to test. It is using the same Mediatek SOC as the OPPO and has many of the same video bugs. I am happy to report that the Sony does not have this issue!

Not sure if I mentioned it or not, but the same bug occurs when you go from 24p to 60p within Dolby Vision. So if you press the right arrow to go from CSE 24p to CSE 60p, you will see this issue. I am hoping that if you go from the menu to 60p, that it is correct. I will know once the menus are actually in place. Right now I have to use goto title and chapter to see the various patterns while David builds up the disc.

We also added one additional audio test for rattles. We have two sweeps.
1. 500-200 Hz
2. 200-15 Hz

The rattle test uses the center channel. The assumption is the center channel is most likely set to small, so it will also go through the subwoofer via bass management in order to reproduce the lowest levels.

If you find a rattle, you can use the A/B loop on the player to have it repeat the region that causes the rattle, so you can track it down and address it.

Two of the seven panning animations are virtually done. More should be completed this weekend. Once all seven are done, I can render and encode them. At that point, disc 2 will be fully encoded and ready for David to start authoring.

I am currently encoding the montage videos for disc 3. They should finish in early June.

So is the solution on the OPPO to power off every time when switching from HDR10 to DV with your disc to ensure it works correctly?

[Stacey Spears]

Originally Posted by wxman2003

So is the solution on the OPPO to power off every time when switching from HDR10 to DV with your disc to ensure it works correctly?

Too soon to tell. I will need the menus in place and have it mostly working before I can give a definitive answer.

HDR10 seems to be fine going back and fourth in my initial testing, so it seems isolated to Dolby Vision and to the OPPO.

The default is Dolby Vision, if the player and display supports it.

[NKB2017]

Originally Posted by Stacey Spears

I had posted a while back about a bug that I encountered on the OPPO using the upcoming disc. When you switch from Dolby Vision to HDR10 and back, the levels for Dolby Vision are now incorrect. I am fairly confident that this is the visual difference people are seeing between the OPPO and Panasonic. I purchased the Sony 800M2 this week to test. It is using the same Mediatek SOC as the OPPO and has many of the same video bugs. I am happy to report that the Sony does not have this issue!

Not sure if I mentioned it or not, but the same bug occurs when you go from 24p to 60p within Dolby Vision. So if you press the right arrow to go from CSE 24p to CSE 60p, you will see this issue. I am hoping that if you go from the menu to 60p, that it is correct. I will know once the menus are actually in place. Right now I have to use goto title and chapter to see the various patterns while David builds up the disc.

We also added one additional audio test for rattles. We have two sweeps.
1. 500-200 Hz
2. 200-15 Hz

The rattle test uses the center channel. The assumption is the center channel is most likely set to small, so it will also go through the subwoofer via bass management in order to reproduce the lowest levels.

If you find a rattle, you can use the A/B loop on the player to have it repeat the region that causes the rattle, so you can track it down and address it.

Two of the seven panning animations are virtually done. More should be completed this weekend. Once all seven are done, I can render and encode them. At that point, disc 2 will be fully encoded and ready for David to start authoring.

I am currently encoding the montage videos for disc 3. They should finish in early June.

I know OPPO are no longer selling physical disc players (i.e. the 203 and 205) BUT... they are at least servicing them. Do you think Oppo might release one final firmware upgrade that corrects this 'bug'? Is that even doable???

[FilmFreakosaurus]

Originally Posted by NKB2017

I know OPPO are no longer selling physical disc players (i.e. the 203 and 205) BUT... they are at least servicing them. Do you think Oppo might release one final firmware upgrade that corrects this 'bug'? Is that even doable???

I doubt they still have a team to create firmware for these players.

[Stacey Spears]

Originally Posted by JohnAV

Stacy in what setting would someone be doing that scenario during normal usage? I copied your message just now for others to see it.

Perhaps an FBI warning might play in HDR10 before the menu is reached. I don't know if any DV discs have HDR10 menus. Or if any bonus material is in HDR10 or possibly SDR. There is no SDR on the HDR disc, so that is a scenario I can't test.

Somehow people are getting into a state where OPPO and Panasonic produce different amounts of saturation for the same content. What I have noticed so far are the luma differences. Once the color patterns are part of the image, there may be other issues that are there full time.

What I need to test is Panasonic and OPPO playing a color window pattern in DV and measure both on the same display and see if there is a noticeable difference, beyond normal measurement differences.

[Stacey Spears]

Originally Posted by NKB2017

I know OPPO are no longer selling physical disc players (i.e. the 203 and 205) BUT... they are at least servicing them. Do you think Oppo might release one final firmware upgrade that corrects this 'bug'? Is that even doable???

I don't know.

The OPPO has so many nice features that other players do not offer. It is the only player we can actually test on from a HDD w/o special FW.

[NKB2017]

Originally Posted by Stacey Spears

I don't know.

The OPPO has so many nice features that other players do not offer. It is the only player we can actually test on from a HDD w/o special FW.

Thanks Stacey... are you still in contact with the Oppo engineers? Maybe they could sort something? Thanks again!!!

[Stacey Spears]

Originally Posted by NKB2017

Thanks Stacey... are you still in contact with the Oppo engineers? Maybe they could sort something? Thanks again!!!

Its been about year since I heard anything and what I was told is that if a commercial disc comes out that won't play, it would be investigated.

Has anyone made a list of players and their decoders? Right now Mediatek seems to be the dominate decoder. I know of one other, which is used in the Panasonic 820 and 9000. Xbox is a software (sMedio) player.

It would be nice if there was a player list that mentioned the decoder / SOC. Or even just a list of all UHD BD players that exist.

I was going to return the Sony until I discovered it does not have the same problem with the levels as OPPO. I will keep it for testing the disc before it ships.

I will be testing on the:
1. OPPO 203
2. Panasonic 9000
3. Sony 800MK2
4. Xbox One S

I think David will be testing on some of those plus a Samsung.

[LordoftheRings]

Good show sir.

[NKB2017]

Really great stuff Stacey. Really admire your thoroughness and passion for getting the very best from AV kit!

[NKB2017]

Originally Posted by Stacey Spears

Its been about year since I heard anything and what I was told is that if a commercial disc comes out that won't play, it would be investigated.

With luck, maybe, they could investigate this 'bug'? Thanks again Stacey! You're a true legend

[gregwwright]

I have a UK (StudioCanal) release of "The Deer Hunter" and the menu is HDR whilst the main film is DV. There are also other screens that appear before the menus that are in HDR, choosing the language etc.

I cant tell if the levels are off to be honest because the whole film is all over the place looks wise. Some scenes are so dark I wish I could go back to just using the Brightness controls!

Its so bad I kept looking at reviews to see if anyone mentions it and people seem to think its fine. Directors intent, I guess.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by gregwwright

I have a UK (StudioCanal) release of "The Deer Hunter" and the menu is HDR whilst the main film is DV. There are also other screens that appear before the menus that are in HDR, choosing the language etc.

I cant tell if the levels are off to be honest because the whole film is all over the place looks wise. Some scenes are so dark I wish I could go back to just using the Brightness controls!

Its so bad I kept looking at reviews to see if anyone mentions it and people seem to think its fine. Directors intent, I guess.

Tone mapping. Always tone mapping. Or ASBL, if you happened to has an OLED. Do you has an OLED?

[gregwwright]

Yes, I have the C9. Everything is turned off. Well, I havent turned off ABSL, although I do have the LG service remote. I have ColourSpace and an iDisplay Pro Plus, although Im still in the learning phase (thanks to Leons guides) so Im fairly happy with my settings.

Ive just checked the 1080p blu ray with the package and its more watchable from a brightness perspective, obviously less detail. Outside scenes are generally ok, its when it goes inside, I think the balance isnt right.

Do you have this disk, are you happy with it. In general, I really like DV disks and dont have problems, but this one seems off to me.

[Stacey Spears]

Originally Posted by gregwwright

Yes, I have the C9. Everything is turned off. Well, I havent turned off ABSL, although I do have the LG service remote. I have ColourSpace and an iDisplay Pro Plus, although Im still in the learning phase (thanks to Leons guides) so Im fairly happy with my settings.

Ive just checked the 1080p blu ray with the package and its more watchable from a brightness perspective, obviously less detail. Outside scenes are generally ok, its when it goes inside, I think the balance isnt right.

Do you have this disk, are you happy with it. In general, I really like DV disks and dont have problems, but this one seems off to me.

Can you send me a link to order this disc? The best way to know is to have two copies and play them side-by-side on two matched displays. One using the Panasonic and one the OPPO.

Thank you for identifying one title that has mixed HDR and Dolby Vision before the movie actually plays.

There is still much testing to do to understand the repro and when this happens and if there are any other issues.

In theory, I can capture the HDMI output and look at the pixel values. This is not an easy task given the hoops I have to jump through, but it is something we can look at later this year. Might be a good topic for one of our training videos.

[gregwwright]

This is the disk

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Deer-Hunter-Blu-ray-Robert-Niro/dp/B07MZJGNCP/ref=tmm_frk_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=1621181484 &sr=8-3