Spears & Munsil 4K UHD HDR Benchmark (Test Discs) May 15, 2023

[PeterTHX]

Originally Posted by DisplayCalNoob

One of the movies that was actually purchased on Vudu, is MM Fury Road. While given a look, I noticed more detail, not resolution but more HDR detail.

Fury Road on Vudu is Dolby Vision where the disc is HDR10.

[DisplayCalNoob]

Originally Posted by PeterTHX

Fury Road on Vudu is Dolby Vision where the disc is HDR10.

Yes, for those of us who have DV enabled displays. I wonder if Vudu has switched to version 4.0. I remember when they switched to Profile 5 from 4 which did have a HDR10 base layer.

[TbeRw01]

Originally Posted by DisplayCalNoob

Yes, for those of us who have DV enabled displays. I wonder if Vudu has switched to version 4.0. I remember when they switched to Profile 5 from 4 which did have a HDR10 base layer.

Vudu use profile 5, and always did. If you want CMv4.0 movies , your only option is Movies Anywhere.

Profile 4 is a dual layer format with SDR base layer and no one ever used except for some LG demos.

Mad Max has pixels that constantly reach 10 000nits so the DV L1 metadata have a very strong effect compared to HDR10. It only has a 100nits trim pass and was done using the old CM v2.9 algo.

[DisplayCalNoob]

Originally Posted by TbeRw01

Vudu use profile 5, and always did. If you want CMv4.0 movies , your only option is Movies Anywhere.

Profile 4 is a dual layer format with SDR base layer and no one ever used except for some LG demos.

Mad Max has pixels that constantly reach 10 000nits so the DV L1 metadata have a very strong effect compared to HDR10. It only has a 100nits trim pass and was done using the old CM v2.9 algo.

That's correct, one thing as I've have jogged my memory. Vudu guys said that displays are or were capable of supporting both profiles for streamed content. I distinctively remember, Vudu content that originally played back in DV, reverting to HDR10 once Vudu started using Profile 5 primarily for DV content.

This all happened during 2016 or early 2017, because the display suddenly would stream HDR10 for the few movies i had on Vudu. Which got me in to looking up the profiles. Once a firmware update was sent by the display manufacturer to support Profile 5 the DV streams started working again.

[Sledgehamma]

Originally Posted by Stacey Spears

On the configuration menu, move the cursor to P3D65|BT.2020. Then press the right arrow 5 times. It will now show you the hidden settings menu. If the player does not support a feature, such as Dolby Vision, it will also report that the display does not support it even if it does. The 3D support also does not ever seem to report correctly, so we will remove that one on the new disc. Everything else seems to report correctly as far as we can tell.

I don't see the P3D65|BT.2020 option on the configuration menu. Am I blind or is it because Zidoo is having problems displaying the BD menu correctly?

[bhampton]

Originally Posted by Sledgehamma

I don't see the P3D65|BT.2020 option on the configuration menu. Am I blind or is it because Zidoo is having problems displaying the BD menu correctly?

The documentation correctly states you need a disc player.

"the Ultra HD Benchmark will only work on an Ultra HD Blu-ray Disc player."

[Cortiz]

Players such as the Panny and Sony doesn't have an option to select TV led DV like the Oppo. So folks that have TV sets that can do DV Led, will these players automatically select TV led if the TV can accept it?

[FilmFreakosaurus]

Originally Posted by Cortiz

Players such as the Panny and Sony doesn't have an option to select TV led DV like the Oppo. So folks that have TV sets that can do DV Led, will these players automatically select TV led if the TV can accept it?

That's how it's supposed to work.

[Stacey Spears]

Originally Posted by Sledgehamma

I don't see the P3D65|BT.2020 option on the configuration menu. Am I blind or is it because Zidoo is having problems displaying the BD menu correctly?

On the new disc, P3D65 option is only on pages that offer it. e.g. you will find it under Advanced Video -> Ramps.

The instructions you reference were for the previous disc. On the new disc, I believe that hidden information page is on disc 3 and might be tied to the 709/2020 option under configuration, I don't recall.

[Stacey Spears]

Originally Posted by DisplayCalNoob

@Stacey Spears

You made a comment that reminded me of this article https://hometheaterhifi.com/technica...-introduction/, about bluray players HDMI ports having incorrect values that negatively affected colorspace conversion.

Do you think what's in the article, which I believe is in part 2 applies to today for UHD Bluray players? If so, is that just the difference between using RGB over YCbCr for proper conversion.

You would have to use the monotonicity patterns with an HDMI Analyzer that can show native pixel values to know for sure.

[DisplayCalNoob]

Originally Posted by Stacey Spears

You would have to use the monotonicity patterns with an HDMI Analyzer that can show native pixel values to know for sure.

Is YCbCr range limited natively? If so, would it have an affect on how black the black bars can be? I'm assuming that the black bars would be video black.

In the case of OLED it doesn't matter, LCD panels would benefit from using RGB or Full Range, particularly when it concerns HDR content(On the player side).

[Stacey Spears]

Originally Posted by DisplayCalNoob

Is YCbCr range limited natively? If so, would it have an affect on how black the black bars can be? I'm assuming that the black bars would be video black.

In the case of OLED it doesn't matter, LCD panels would benefit from using RGB or Full Range, particularly when it concerns HDR content(On the player side).

YCbCr Monotonicity goes from 1-1023. Or it might be 4-1019. I don't recall at this very moment.

In order to produce the S&M ramps, we use values below 64 to ensure we get the proper value above 64. e.g. If we are looking at a red ramp, we will use values below 64 for green and blue to ensure red is produced at each level.

If you convert from RGB to YCbCr and back to RGB, not every value will return as the original value.

[DisplayCalNoob]

Originally Posted by Stacey Spears

YCbCr Monotonicity goes from 1-1023. Or it might be 4-1019. I don't recall at this very moment.

In order to produce the S&M ramps, we use values below 64 to ensure we get the proper value above 64. e.g. If we are looking at a red ramp, we will use values below 64 for green and blue to ensure red is produced at each level.

If you convert from RGB to YCbCr and back to RGB, not every value will return as the original value.

Is it safe to assume, code value 1 is 0.0005 cd/m2 or True Black?

[Stacey Spears]

Originally Posted by DisplayCalNoob

Is it safe to assume, code value 1 is 0.0005 cd/m2 or True Black?

64 is true black. Limited range is used for transmission of all content delivered to the consumer in both SDR and HDR.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by DisplayCalNoob

Is YCbCr range limited natively? If so, would it have an affect on how black the black bars can be? I'm assuming that the black bars would be video black.

In the case of OLED it doesn't matter, LCD panels would benefit from using RGB or Full Range, particularly when it concerns HDR content(On the player side).

How does it not matter with OLED but would help LCD? Hmmmm

[nissling]

Originally Posted by DisplayCalNoob

Is YCbCr range limited natively? If so, would it have an affect on how black the black bars can be? I'm assuming that the black bars would be video black.

Y'CbCr is practically always in SMPTE Legal Levels. Data levels is risky and not tolerated by the HDMI protocol when using Y'CbCr. BT.601, BT.709 and BT.2020 all use Y'CbCr with Legal Levels (0-109%).

I believe the only real exception is that in a professional enviroment, Y'CbCr can use data levels in BT.2100. Someone with more knowledge is welcome to correct me if I'm wrong. Otherwise, you will most likely only see Data levels with RGB.

Keep in mind that SMPTE Legal Levels is a question about reference levels. If we're talking SDR with an 8-bit signal, 16 and below is meant to be black on the display. It's essentially nominal black. The levels below 16 are still present in the source and the HDMI signal. Reference for white is 235 but the whiter-than-white data are supposed to be visible on display all the way up to 255. This is essential for proper EOTF calculations and YUV<->RGB conversions. Not all displays support it however.

Analog video also behave similar to that of Legal Levels, with ranges from -50 to 770mV, or even slightly higher, commonplace. Digital graphics on the other hand behaved different in the analog domain, making computers and video game only using the 0-700mV range (or 50-700mV if using 7.5IRE black levels). Since negative binary doesn't exist in the same way as negative voltage, it made more sense to design Legal Levels in such way that it mirrors analog video while letting digitally generated graphics use the entire range. Those engineers were well aware of what they were doing.

[mkozlows]

Have any reviewers or publications used this disc to evaluate disc players? I'd really love to see a comprehensive comparison test that goes beyond "idk looked good to me" nonsense.

[Stacey Spears]

I am not sure if anyone has gone back to review existing players.

[DisplayCalNoob]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

How does it not matter with OLED but would help LCD? Hmmmm

Stacey answered it, 64 is true black. In the case of OLED, it's 0 black as soon as the pixels are off. LCD, backlights are off, but doesn't even come close to true black. So I wonder, in the case of LCD, are black bars just backlights off or is it a combination of the backlights off and YCbCr or RGB values.

[Stacey Spears]

With SDR, you can raise black level / brightness and see below black on some displays, which would be values below 16 in 8-bit and below 64 in 10-bit. I don't recall of LG shows below black or not. The key is to color convert to RGB prior to clipping below 16/64 information. If it clips before below black, then it may alter values above black. On our clipping pattern that has RGB on top and WB on bottom with concentric boxes, you can see this on the black pattern in the lower right. Y goes below black while Cb and Cr do not. Once you convert to RGB, all values are above black in YCbCr.

For the top end, in SDR, contrast will control what you see above 235/940. I personally set to see everything up to 254/1019. I think the default on LG clips the top and I lower from 85 to 84. This is on a C9. Some like to clip at 235/940, some like to go a little higher and some, like me, go up to the top end.

For HDR, things work differently, at least with PQ/SMPTE ST 2048. They expand 64 to 0 and 940 to 1019/1023 (Not sure which).

SMPTE ST 2084 was designed to be 12-bit, which results in each code value being below 1 JND from bottom to top, which should result in no visible banding. Sadly, pretty much every consumer TV panel expected gamma 2.2 input, so they have to twist PQ into gamma before sending a signal to the panel itself. This is why you are not seeing the full benefit of HDR today in terms of banding.