Spears & Munsil 4K UHD HDR Benchmark (Test Discs) May 15, 2023

[DJR662]

Originally Posted by sapiendut

To do a proper calibration, I use the Custom Mode. Standard is unuseable for anything at all and Cinema Pro is good if you don't want to do a full calibration (read: just minor tweaks here and there right out of the box).

That's just what I did actually. When she got the TV (which was a present from me btw ), I had set it to Cinema Pro and just did a little adjusting on the spot (basically making sure all unwanted processing was turned off and picture settings set to a "safe" setting).

Next time when I come over, I'll bring the S&M UHD disc with me.

[Geoff D]

Just FYI Custom hard clips to 1000 nits in HDR on default contrast settings on the ZD9, so it may be the same on other Sony sets.

[HDMan72]

Originally Posted by DJR662

From the 3rd edition articles:

"Important Note: We do not recommend changing the Contrast controls for HDR mode on any UHD TV, but we do recommend setting Contrast in SDR mode. In HDR mode, the TV inherently is designed to clip high-brightness picture data, with the specific clipping points and range compression varying as the content brightness varies (this process of resetting the curves as the picture changes is called “tone mapping”). A simple Contrast control can’t really change that adequately, with the result that the tone mapping algorithms for HDR only really work at the standard Contrast level. If you move Contrast, the results can look OK on some content and bad on others. For SDR content, however, the Contrast control is properly defined and we recommend adjusting it according to this guide."

So the Z9D is the only TV to which this does not apply or other Sony HDR TVs as well then?

I've been trying to understand this myself since getting the UHD benchmark disc. If I want to use the same mode, say Cinema Pro for SDR & HDR than I would adjust contrast using the SDR pattern, avoid clipping and leave it there. I did readjust my Dolby Vision contrast to around 87 since there is clipping on that montage scene.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by HDMan72

I've been trying to understand this myself since getting the UHD benchmark disc. If I want to use the same mode, say Cinema Pro for SDR & HDR than I would adjust contrast using the SDR pattern, avoid clipping and leave it there. I did readjust my Dolby Vision contrast to around 87 since there is clipping on that montage scene.

It *is* clipping on the snow in chapter 2, but as the luminance on the default 90 on Sony TVs is already substantially lower than calibrated HDR10 with the same visual material then I wouldn't recommend lowering contrast below 90. Yes, it's clipping out >4000 material - remember, Stacey said that they wanted this montage to be a torture test - but as most actual movie DV content gets nowhere near 4000 nits then I'm happy to leave it on 90. I'm not going to adjust it downwards for everything on the basis of that one scene in the montage.

[HDMan72]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

It *is* clipping on the snow in chapter 2, but as the luminance on the default 90 on Sony TVs is already substantially lower than calibrated HDR10 with the same visual material then I wouldn't recommend lowering contrast below 90. Yes, it's clipping out >4000 material - remember, Stacey said that they wanted this montage to be a torture test - but as most actual movie DV content gets nowhere near 4000 nits then I'm happy to leave it on 90. I'm not going to adjust it downwards for everything on the basis of that one scene in the montage.

I noticed a considerable drop off when I went to 87. Thanks. I'm still trying to get a hold on contrast with SDR & HDR10. To answer my other question, I can adjust contrast with SDR and it will carry over for HDR10, would this be correct? Or would it be better two have to separate modes, say Cinema Home for SDR, Cinema Pro for HDR10.

[Geoff D]

Contrast will NOT react the same in SDR and HDR, if you set it to X level using an SDR pattern and just leave it the same for HDR then you'll have no idea what it's doing in HDR. Contrast and luminance are all different between Custom, Cinema Pro and Cinema Home (if set to the same levels as each other) as well.

Because of the 1000-nit clip in Custom on the ZD9 I don't use that for HDR at all, I use it for SDR only. For my main calibrated HDR mode that follows the correct curve but clips at ~1500 nits I use Cinema Pro, this is my go-to setting for all non-DV discs from Fox, Paramount, Universal and Disney as they all master their HDR10 to 1000 nits for disc.

In Cinema Home I store my "4000 nit mode", so named not for the brightness but for the amount of extra highlight detail it can recover on such HDR10 discs from Warners and Sony. I reduce the contrast to bring back the highlights and although this reduces luminance it still relatively tracks the PQ curve and it still looks good and punchy in a darkened room (whereas DV is even dimmer!).

[HDMan72]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Contrast will NOT react the same in SDR and HDR, if you set it to X level using an SDR pattern and just leave it the same for HDR then you'll have no idea what it's doing in HDR. Contrast and luminance are all different between Custom, Cinema Pro and Cinema Home (if set to the same levels as each other) as well.

Because of the 1000-nit clip in Custom on the ZD9 I don't use that for HDR at all, I use it for SDR only. For my main calibrated HDR mode that follows the correct curve but clips at ~1500 nits I use Cinema Pro, this is my go-to setting for all non-DV discs from Fox, Paramount, Universal and Disney as they all master their HDR10 to 1000 nits for disc.

In Cinema Home I store my "4000 nit mode", so named not for the brightness but for the amount of extra highlight detail it can recover on such HDR10 discs from Warners and Sony. I reduce the contrast to bring back the highlights and although this reduces luminance it still relatively tracks the PQ curve and it still looks good and punchy in a darkened room (whereas DV is even dimmer!).

So using UHD Benchmark, when it comes to HDR, say I want to try what your doing with two HDR modes. When I bring up the HDR contrast pattern, do I adjust contrast to avoid clipping? I think default contrast is 100. I haven't really looked at the HDR contrast pattern yet (only used it in SDR). Sooner rather than later I would like to get an X-Rite i1 Display Pro again and use with with HCFR or Calman to further my calibration attempt. It makes more sense to me now about sharing contrast with SDR & HDR.

[HDMan72]

Ok, just using UHD Benchmark HDR contrast pattern for HDR10 4,000 nits, Cinema Home it looks like contrast 82 is correct. For 1,000 nits in Cinema Pro I have 93. I’m going by getting the most bars visible by not clipping. I did do a comparison between the two montage sequences at 1,000 vs 4,000 nits and do see a difference in highlights. I’m actually having the most fun with this disc as of right now.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by HDMan72

So using UHD Benchmark, when it comes to HDR, say I want to try what your doing with two HDR modes. When I bring up the HDR contrast pattern, do I adjust contrast to avoid clipping? I think default contrast is 100. I haven't really looked at the HDR contrast pattern yet (only used it in SDR). Sooner rather than later I would like to get an X-Rite i1 Display Pro again and use with with HCFR or Calman to further my calibration attempt. It makes more sense to me now about sharing contrast with SDR & HDR.

Dude, it won't be perfectly calibrated just by eyeballing it but would you not want to at least know what the HDR response is doing in the meantime? Using an SDR pattern will tell you *nothing* about what your HDR is actually doing.

Contrast should NOT be at 100% either, I know Calman recommends that for SDR calibration but *only* for calibration, as once that's done you then set it back to where you like. But in HDR, leaving it on 100 - if we're talking about a Sony TV - can kill a big amount of highlight detail in most viewing modes.

On the ZD9, the contrast control in HDR10 does the following:

Custom - 100 clips at ~500 nits (90 default clips at 1000 nits)
Cinema Pro - 100 clips at ~800 nits (90 default clips at ~1400 nits)
Cinema Home - 100 clips at ~1400 nits (100 is the default contrast for this picture mode, as a rule it sets contrast 10 clicks higher than Cinema Pro for the equivalent output which is why it gives the same result on 100 as Pro does on 90. For reference, 90 contrast in Cinema Home clips at ~2400 nits)

[edit]

I was testing this while you made the next post above. Hallelujah, he can be saved!!

[Geoff D]

And yes, Cinema Home on 82 is exactly where my "4000 nit" mode is set, though via calibration I've got Cinema Pro on 86 as this most closely hugs the correct PQ brightness curve (assessed via a colourimeter and HCFR) and clips highlights at approximately 1600 nits. As I said, Pro is my 'go to' mode for most HDR discs and I keep the more-highlights-less-contrast Home mode for content that I know which has highlights going into 4000 nits, whereupon I'm happy to occasionally sacrifice brightness for range.

[HDMan72]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Dude, it won't be perfectly calibrated just by eyeballing it but would you not want to at least know what the HDR response is doing in the meantime? Using an SDR pattern will tell you *nothing* about what your HDR is actually doing.

Contrast should NOT be at 100% either, I know Calman recommends that for SDR calibration but *only* for calibration, as once that's done you then set it back to where you like. But in HDR, leaving it on 100 - if we're talking about a Sony TV - can kill a big amount of highlight detail in most viewing modes.

On the ZD9, the contrast control in HDR10 does the following:

Custom - 100 clips at ~500 nits (90 default clips at 1000 nits)
Cinema Pro - 100 clips at ~800 nits (90 default clips at ~1400 nits)
Cinema Home - 100 clips at ~1400 nits (100 is the default contrast for this picture mode, as a rule it sets contrast 10 clicks higher than Cinema Pro for the equivalent output which is why it gives the same result on 100 as Pro does on 90. For reference, 90 contrast in Cinema Home clips at ~2400 nits)

[edit]

I was testing this while you made the next post above. Hallelujah, he can be saved!!

Originally Posted by Geoff D

And yes, Cinema Home on 82 is exactly where my "4000 nit" mode is set, though via calibration I've got Cinema Pro on 86 as this most closely hugs the correct PQ brightness curve (assessed via a colourimeter and HCFR) and clips highlights at approximately 1600 nits. As I said, Pro is my 'go to' mode for most HDR discs and I keep the more-highlights-less-contrast Home mode for content that I know which has highlights going into 4000 nits, whereupon I'm happy to occasionally sacrifice brightness for range.

I'm glad you think I can be saved! lol. I'm slowly getting the hang of this and I always see people post settings which has helped me get a great picture but since getting UHD Benchmark I do want to learn how and why we get to these settings. I'm stunned I got the Cinema Home at 82 correct. I checked out a few Warner discs I have and they looked very good. Thanks for your patience brotha!

[Geoff D]

Remember: Home on 82 is a fair bit less bright than what it should be in HDR so it's not recommended for all discs, only those with mega highlights if you're happy to trade off the brightness for range in that instance.

[HDMan72]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Remember: Home on 82 is a fair bit less bright than what it should be in HDR so it's not recommended for all discs, only those with mega highlights if you're happy to trade off the brightness for range in that instance.

Yes, one that comes to mind is Batman v Superman, the battle with Doomsday. I also played the montage from Benchmark at 4,000 nits. What other movies with mega highlights might you recommend?

[Geoff D]

The Meg comes to mind, though that's very 'fake' HDR as you need to be able to resolve a minimum of 2000 nits just to be able to see highlight information that's right there in the 100-nit SDR version! Life from Sony is another with very high peaks, and several of their 35mm remasters go up to silly levels like ~9000 nits (again though, quite 'fake' HDR in some cases as the existing highlight detail is pumped up into those ridiculous levels).

[HDMan72]

I've been actually thinking of picking up The Meg. Only watched it once on HBO. I was looking at my Cinema Pro and noticed I told you I had contrast at 93, I realized I originally was using 95 awhile back so when I adjusted to the contrast pattern I went from 95 down to 93. Thanks for pointing out the default contrast levels above.

[Stacey Spears]

HDR was designed to be full range from end to end, but, the CE industry went with limited range. It is converted to limited range for delivery prior to encoding. Many HDR displays expand back to full range internally. For displays that expand back to full range, pulling contrast down does not return clipped highlight detail.

Would be curious to hear from those with displays other than Sony or LG to know what they do. I have tested Samsung, but its been a while and I don't recall what it did. I did test the blue only mode on the Samsung 8K this week and it works like a champ, the same as LG did when they had it. I wish Sony and others would either add a blue-only mode or simply remove color and tint from the menu.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Wendell R. Breland

Is the AJA analyzer your personal equipment? If so, color me envious .

As an aside, AJA’s FS-HDR was used in monitoring the production of Top Gun: Maverick –

AJA Quick Start: FS-HDR - YouTube

[DisplayCalNoob]

Originally Posted by Stacey Spears

HDR was designed to be full range from end to end, but, the CE industry went with limited range. It is converted to limited range for delivery prior to encoding. Many HDR displays expand back to full range internally. For displays that expand back to full range, pulling contrast down does not return clipped highlight detail.

Would be curious to hear from those with displays other than Sony or LG to know what they do. I have tested Samsung, but its been a while and I don't recall what it did. I did test the blue only mode on the Samsung 8K this week and it works like a champ, the same as LG did when they had it. I wish Sony and others would either add a blue-only mode or simply remove color and tint from the menu.

2016 Vizio P Series P55-C1

So, I had contrast set to 45, this set the display for 10,000 nits. To get the luminance back up I increased the backlighting to 58, even attempted higher settings. To high it really through off EOTF tracking and the tone mapping. Bright light sources, coming through the van window of Ready Player One turned in to a white bright blob. Went on to discover, 58 lifted the lower end of the PQ curve, there was more detail in black, but the picture lacked depth. Still chasing that lost luminance, because contrast at 45 just produce more cloud detail and worked really well for 1000 nit content, and dark color performance was better. I did a 2 point, SDR Gain only calibration to 100 nits, then applied the settings to DV. It did job, luminance was there with more pop. Bright scenes in Rampage were bright cloud details was intact, reflections looked realistically bright. HDR10 benefits were abundant, increasing the backlight to 58 introduced gradient banding in the sky during bright scenes, but with a lower contrast of 48 it was awesome.

So last night, after a discussion conducted in the AVS forum with another member, who argued that he saw no difference, after lowering contrast on his 2018 Vizio P Series Quantum 2300 nits peak. I decided to put my DV Contrast and Backlight back to stock, while leaving the 2 point Gain only settings that was created with the contrast at 45. The, there was definitely more visible detail in Aquaman, especially in the big final battle at the end. Explosions were brighter, small debris surrounding the explosions are visible that I couldn't see before. The Queen of Atlantis dress at the end, sparkled with tones of light bouncing off the sequence and stones on her dress.

So currently, I'm dealing with a trade off, greater detail in the clouds, deeper sky blue and reds, and befter dark color performance by a lowered contrast setting.

Dazzling brightness and pop, and increased detail that really benefits 4000 nit masters. Now, I need to test animated films like Despicable Me.

[DJR662]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Contrast will NOT react the same in SDR and HDR, if you set it to X level using an SDR pattern and just leave it the same for HDR then you'll have no idea what it's doing in HDR. Contrast and luminance are all different between Custom, Cinema Pro and Cinema Home (if set to the same levels as each other) as well.

Because of the 1000-nit clip in Custom on the ZD9 I don't use that for HDR at all, I use it for SDR only. For my main calibrated HDR mode that follows the correct curve but clips at ~1500 nits I use Cinema Pro, this is my go-to setting for all non-DV discs from Fox, Paramount, Universal and Disney as they all master their HDR10 to 1000 nits for disc.

In Cinema Home I store my "4000 nit mode", so named not for the brightness but for the amount of extra highlight detail it can recover on such HDR10 discs from Warners and Sony. I reduce the contrast to bring back the highlights and although this reduces luminance it still relatively tracks the PQ curve and it still looks good and punchy in a darkened room (whereas DV is even dimmer!).

I've actually been using Pro for both SDR and HDR viewing all this time. Initially I had contrast set to 84 for HDR. I did that by eye using the very beginning of the last chapter of Pacific Rim UHD (that shot of the ocean and the sky). Then I changed that to 86 later on when you said that's what tracks the PQ curve the best according to your calibration. From what I remember back then, contrast set to 86 for SDR didn't really clip that much, so I just took the small tradeoff for SDR (if any at all for real world content?) and used Pro for both SDR and HDR and never looked back.

I now actually prefer trying to use as few different picture modes as possible. If that means a small tradeoff in any of them, then I can live with that. I used to have different picture modes for day and nighttime viewing, for cable TV, for 3D and then for HDR. In the end I got tired of having to switch each time, never mind forgetting to switch back to the appropiate picture mode when done watching in another.

So right now I use Pro for 2D SDR/HDR, Custom for 3D and Home for the occassional 4000 nit discs (though I must confess I hardly use the latter).

Btw when I looked at the montage in 4000 nits with the Panasonic 820, toggling between Pro with the Optimizer on and Home with the Optimizer off, I was reminded again why I don't use the Optimizer with the Z9D.

Originally Posted by HDMan72

Ok, just using UHD Benchmark HDR contrast pattern for HDR10 4,000 nits, Cinema Home it looks like contrast 82 is correct. For 1,000 nits in Cinema Pro I have 93. I’m going by getting the most bars visible by not clipping. I did do a comparison between the two montage sequences at 1,000 vs 4,000 nits and do see a difference in highlights. I’m actually having the most fun with this disc as of right now.

So if by setting contrast to 93 in Pro gets you the most bars without clipping, I wonder what this means for the way it follows the PQ curve with that setting then?

[HDMan72]

Originally Posted by DJR662

I've actually been using Pro for both SDR and HDR viewing all this time. Initially I had contrast set to 84 for HDR. I did that by eye using the very beginning of the last chapter of Pacific Rim UHD (that shot of the ocean and the sky). Then I changed that to 86 later on when you said that's what tracks the PQ curve the best according to your calibration. From what I remember back then, contrast set to 86 for SDR didn't really clip that much, so I just took the small tradeoff for SDR (if any at all for real world content?) and used Pro for both SDR and HDR and never looked back.

I now actually prefer trying to use as few different picture modes as possible. If that means a small tradeoff in any of them, then I can live with that. I used to have different picture modes for day and nighttime viewing, for cable TV, for 3D and then for HDR. In the end I got tired of having to switch each time, never mind forgetting to switch back to the appropiate picture mode when done watching in another.

So right now I use Pro for 2D SDR/HDR, Custom for 3D and Home for the occassional 4000 nit discs (though I must confess I hardly use the latter).

Btw when I looked at the montage in 4000 nits with the Panasonic 820, toggling between Pro with the Optimizer on and Home with the Optimizer off, I was reminded again why I don't use the Optimizer with the Z9D.



So if by setting contrast to 93 in Pro gets you the most bars without clipping, I wonder what this means for the way it follows the PQ curve with that setting then?

I would imagine the PQ curve might be off in some way? We would need a colorimeter to be sure I suspect. I lowered my Pro contrast down to the default 90, the same amount of bars were lit without clipping.