British Film Institute (BFI) Discussion Thread

[stepeanut]

Originally Posted by sjt

Ken Russell was never "a bit panto".

“Oh, yes, he is!”

[Aunt Peg]

Speaking of Ken Russell I really wish that the BFI could get hold of the rights for Savage Messiah & The Music Lovers and give them the Blu Ray release the deserve and that is long overdue.

[Yami]

The Music Lovers is with Criterion in the US, who knows if they've got it here or not. I wish that the BFI had got Savage Messiah back when they managed to release a few Warner titles.

On the Ken Russell front, I hope for/expect a release of Dance of the Seven Veils before the end of the year now that the Strauss estate can have no say in it.

[Aclea]

Nothing was beyond our Ken in the panto stakes: it's amazing he got Warner Bros to stump up a big budget for the way, way beyond bonkers glam rock WTF? phantasmagoria on steroids Lisztomania. Ringo Starr as the Pope is the closest to naturalism it gets

His long 'banned by copyright' Richard Strauss film for the BBC, Dance of the Seven Veils, is getting its first screening since 1970 now Strauss' music is out of copyright and Strauss' estate can no longer block it. Russell's widow has what may be the only surviving print (apparently faded), so that may work its way to BFI Blu.

[Yami]

The BFI have a 16mm colour positive in their archive, which I've been told is far better quality than the bootleg we're used to. Don't know how it compares to Lisi Russell's print.

The BFI have implied to me that they're working on it, and it shows up with a BFI logo on a search of the national archive so I think it's a racing certainty that we'll hear some good news soon.

[BigNickUK]

Watched Scandal last night. Terrific restoration and transfer.

[Vault of Horror]

Originally Posted by BigNickUK

Watched Scandal last night. Terrific restoration and transfer.

Nice to know. Mine is on its way from base.

Looking forward to seeing it again after so many years.

[Ste7en]

Originally Posted by crazybeats

I'm thinking of buying The Devil's but not sure I would like it. I've seen trailers and it just comes across as very British and a bit panto. I don't know Ken Russell but it's like with books, as soon as you see the author's name attached to the name of a book I think....there's history here lol. It's always Ken Russell's The Devils and that's a bit off putting because it makes me think I'm right in that it's going to have that British panto thing going on and it's going to be a bit theatrical and my suspension of disbelief will go right out the window.

One of my favourite films of all time.

[floor pie]

About The Devils (I think I'll order it from Amazon soon) - why did Warner allow BFI only to release a DVD of it? And from what I understand Warner also has the longer cut of the film (or deleted scenes). Why hasn't it ever been released?

[Yami]

Originally Posted by floor pie

About The Devils (I think I'll order it from Amazon soon) - why did Warner allow BFI only to release a DVD of it? And from what I understand they also have the longer cut of the film. Why hasn't it ever been released?

Because Warner won't allow it, that's the only reason that there has ever been.

[floor pie]

Originally Posted by Yami

Because Warner won't allow it, that's the only reason that there has ever been.

I know they won't allow it, I was getting at the why of the matter. But since no one seems to know, I'll speculate: could it be blasphemy? (I've no idea what the cut sequences include.) Or just rights issues, as in they want to release the longer cut themselves?

[Yami]

Originally Posted by floor pie

I know they won't allow it, I was getting at the why of the matter. Could it be blasphemy? (I've no idea what the cut sequences include.)

There has never been, to my knowledge, a public statement by anyone who works at Warner as to why they still won't allow it in the year 2020. But it has always seemed to be some sort of personal objection on religious grounds.

Mark Kermode, who discovered the cut scenes with Ken Russell, has spoken extensively on the subject

[Aclea]

There's a lot of hyperbole and conspiracy theories about this film (just as there were about Clockwork Orange), but the reality is rather mundane and very coldly financially rational.

The reason Warners wouldn't allow the BFI to do a Bluray was a combination of element and contractual issues. Warners paid for the restored master that was used for the DVD* but were not willing to allow/spend the money on a new master because the quality of the elements was so poor. That master would become the default hi-def master of the film and would certainly be rejected by any of the few TV networks interested in showing the film, so its only financial value would be for home video.

Because the film was a flop everywhere but the UK and Italy, any hi-def master would be a one-and-done rather than a title that would get remastered if better elements were found, not least because it almost certainly wouldn't pay for itself: the film has virtually no TV value. As for streaming, Warners made it available but the film was apparently pulled at the request of the sites hosting the streaming services offering it over the fact it was the unrated (in the US) cut, which was a violation of their Ts&Cs.

While everyone likes to think in terms of conspiracy, it's the financials that dictate the disinterest. The film may be a cause celebre in the UK, but it's just another Ken Russell flop anywhere else, and with WHV cutting back on their back-catalogue physical media releases as the market shrinks, one that isn't a priority, especially given its poor record of losing money on home video in the past: it didn't do well on laser disc, the UK retail VHS release (which I worked on) flopped, and I doubt the BFI DVD - which is still available, so hardly suppressed - did more than pay for the office coffee.

The film hasn't really generated much of a paying customer base in previous attempts to exploit it in the UK, more a very vocal minority, many of whom are probably paid up members of the Day One Club (translation; they'll buy it in a couple of years when it's only a fiver, though my local HMV hasn't been able to shift their copy of the DVD for that after five years). And the apparent legal complications over a full pre-release director's cut restoration would still need to be resolved: those I'm really not sure of, but sound like they may be contractual approval issues from people who are either unwilling or too dead to give them (but as I say, I don't know chapter and verse on those).

Basically a flop film that has always lost the studio money in its home video incarnations isn't a hill anyone thinks its worth dying on when a substandard quality Bluray release that gets terrible reviews for picture quality doesn't do very well either. Not as sexy as a corporate conspiracy to suppress a film that's had TV screenings, VHS, laser disc, DVD and streaming releases, I know...


* The version the BFI released on DVD is basically the package that Brian Jamieson put together at WHV (Warners and Russell had been searching for missing elements since the late 90s, ironically at a time when one of the two men running the theatrical division was a devout Catholic: apparently Russell's erratic behavior complicated the issue at times). It was a sort of offshoot of the success of the UK theatrical reissue of The Exorcist in 1998, leading to plans to follow the UK reissue of Clockwork Orange after Kubrick's death with The Devils. That was pulled in the wake of the AOL-TimeWarner merger/takeover and seems to be a combination of new brooms sweeping away old projects (a lot of home video special editions/reissues had been moneylosing prestige projects, especially after Clockwork Orange's wide release UK reissue proved an embarrassing flop) and running into the same problem The Wild Bunch restoration did where a number of major US retailers simply wouldn't take an unrated version. When Jamieson left Warners (and eventually set up Twilight Time), the project was left orphaned with no-one inhouse to champion it. And it's the latter that usually causes back-catalog titles to go back on the shelf, especially in an environment when budgets and staffing levels are constantly being cut and taking the wrong chance can mean you will never work in the industry again (one reason no-one wants to take the time to unwind the contractual issues rather than moral qualms that apparently prevent a full restoration of the director's cut).

[Fnord Prefect]

Originally Posted by floor pie

I know they won't allow it, I was getting at the why of the matter. But since no one seems to know, I'll speculate: could it be blasphemy? (I've no idea what the cut sequences include.) Or just rights issues, as in they want to release the longer cut themselves?

There has been speculation that the additional footage from the director's cut simply wasn't in good enough condition to warrant inclusion without restoration that neither Warner's nor the BFI were willing to finance.

However as said above neither party has ever made a public statement on the subject, though interestingly as recent as last week a BFI staff member has stated that at one point intention was to include the film as part of their ongoing Flipside (of British Cinema) collection which means at the very least they were expecting Warner's to hand over if not the director's cut certainly an uncut HD master of the longest existent cut, the version Russell submitted to the BBFC.

[Aclea]

The situation was basically the same as Alice Doesn't Live Here Anymore: there was no HD master to hand over.

[Yami]

It was my understanding that Warner wouldn't allow the BFI to pay for/carry out a restoration themselves, however? I'm not entirely sure if that goes against what you're saying Aclea, but while I fully understand why Warner may not want to invest any cash of their own into the title it's another matter entirely when it comes to allowing someone else to burden the financial risk.

I was unaware of any chatter with any contractual issues, but worth mentioning that the 'Rape of Christ' scene also had to be edited out of the Hell on Earth documentary included as an extra on the DVD.

Re: the Scorseses, I can't vouch for the quality or otherwise but Alice Doesn't Live Here Anymore has been available to rent/purchase on VoD platforms in HD for years. Not the case for Who's That Knocking On My Door however.

[Aclea]

The BFI did not pay for the SD master of The Devils and apparently there were issues over who would pay for an HD one: Warner handing over existing elements was one thing, but spending money on new ones a different matter. It certainly wasn't as simple as the BFI offering to fully fund it and being turned down.

As with The Exorcist, there were different cuts of the documentary created for TV and Warners due to legal and contractual issues (in the case of The Fear of God, Mercedes McCambridge stipulated her interview couldn't be used in any of the three cuts WHV created while some footage in the 75 minute cut couldn't be cleared for the BBC version). Apparently the BFI version of the Devils doc has some material not in the TV version.

IIRC, the streaming master of Alice available in the BFI's timeframe for their release was an upscale.

[fatboyslim142]

Originally Posted by Aclea

Apparently the BFI version of the Devils doc has some material not in the TV version.

That is just more talking heads to replace the Director's Cut scenes that Warner said NO to using.

[Areopagita]

If the BFI shop says "Currently out of stock" do they really mean the "currently" part or is going to be out of stock forever?

[tcslevitt]

Originally Posted by Areopagita

If the BFI shop says "Currently out of stock" do they really mean the "currently" part or is going to be out of stock forever?

Depends whether it’s out of print or not. What title are you after?