British Film Institute (BFI) Discussion Thread

[jayembee]

Originally Posted by sjt

"Advocating for silent feature films before Birth can also mean advocating for Cabiria, a film which influenced Italian Fascism."

So what? Wagner certainly influenced Nazi philosophy - even though he died in 1883 - as did Nietzsche, dead in 1900. Are we not meant to enjoy their music and writing for what they are, as opposed to what others later made out of them? Personally, though I dislike the Griffiths (as much for its cornpone sentimentality as much as anything else), I would absolutely love one of the major boutiques to produce a properly curated bells-and-whistles edition of Cabiria, and be first in the queue to buy it. It's the start of cinema as mind-boggling spectacle, and without it none of the big historical epics of the later C20th would even exist (not to mention Fellini's hysterical send-up in Roma).

For what it's worth, Kino's DVD (which they released 20 years ago) is still available, at least directly from them:

https://www.kinolorber.com/product/cabiria-dvd

As is their 3-disc edition of The Birth of a Nation, which is in their current "Shoctober" sale for $12 (though "temporarily out of stock"):

https://www.kinolorber.com/product/t...dition-blu-ray

[Professor Echo]

Originally Posted by CelestialAgent

I think Birth is the epitome of the ‘problematic’ silent

I just informed my supplier, never mind the crystal meth, try to score me a copy of the Blu-ray for BIRTH OF A NATION.

Seriously, what worries me is just WHO is it that gets to decide what is "problematic" and what isn't? We're heading into dark ages if this stuff starts getting out of hand, which it could very fast. How soon did the Nazis start burning books and Stalin start erasing history from the state records because he just didn't like it?

My reaction to all of this is not to quote Teddy Roosevelt anymore since he too has become "problematic," but to echo his sentiments as Ernest Borgnine does in THE WILD BUNCH when he says: "Walk softly, boys."

[CelestialAgent]

Originally Posted by Professor Echo

I just informed my supplier, never mind the crystal meth, try to score me a copy of the Blu-ray for BIRTH OF A NATION.

Seriously, what worries me is just WHO is it that gets to decide what is "problematic" and what isn't? We're heading into dark ages if this stuff starts getting out of hand, which it could very fast. How soon did the Nazis start burning books and Stalin start erasing history from the state records because he just didn't like it?

My reaction to all of this is not to quote Teddy Roosevelt anymore since he too has become "problematic," but to echo his sentiments as Ernest Borgnine does in THE WILD BUNCH when he says: "Walk softly, boys."

You can debate many other things being ‘problematic’ or not. It’s impossible not to call Birth problematic.

It’s not a matter of not liking something. The Nazis and Stalin didn’t erase the past because it was racist, quite the opposite. But Birth’s entire filmic narrative is a rewriting of the Civil War through a Lost Cause lens and emphasising the power of the KKK in a historical fiction way.

[James78]

Originally Posted by Professor Echo

Seriously, what worries me is just WHO is it that gets to decide what is "problematic" and what isn't? We're heading into dark ages if this stuff starts getting out of hand, which it could very fast. How soon did the Nazis start burning books and Stalin start erasing history from the state records because he just didn't like it?

Re-evaluating past films by considering thoughtful representation of the oppressed is the opposite of the dark ages, and certainly fascism. I am truly saddened that you equate them at all. Society changes and develops, as does what is considered appropriate as we begin to see the world from different people's perspectives. The BFI is at the forefront of broadening minds, not limiting them.

[Professor Echo]

Originally Posted by CelestialAgent

You can debate many other things being ‘problematic’ or not. It’s impossible not to call Birth problematic.

It’s not a matter of not liking something. The Nazis and Stalin didn’t erase the past because it was racist, quite the opposite. But Birth’s entire filmic narrative is a rewriting of the Civil War through a Lost Cause lens and emphasising the power of the KKK in a historical fiction way.

Originally Posted by James78

Re-evaluating past films by considering thoughtful representation of the oppressed is the opposite of the dark ages, and certainly fascism. I am truly saddened that you equate them at all. Society changes and develops, as does what is considered appropriate as we begin to see the world from different people's perspectives. The BFI is at the forefront of broadening minds, not limiting them.

Nowhere did I say that BIRTH OF A NATION was not, in fact, problematic.

Nowhere did I say that things, any things, from the past never require reevaluating. What rational, thinking person would ever say such a thing?

Read my post again and think about it rather than typical message board rushing to irately counter attack.

But if both of you are saddened by my post, why not be saddened by instant reactionary conclusions based on superficial assumptions? My post was about censorship being bad and if you don't agree with that, we are at opposite ends, but please don't try to deflect that point based on your own preconceived ideals. We have enough instant and invented judgmental thinking going on in our world these days.

EDIT TO ADD: I stand by everything I said in my previous post and this one and won't engage in an endless online forum debate regarding it. I try to avoid roads going nowhere for my own personal composure, but really I have nothing further to add on this particular subject, so I wish everyone a nice day.

[James78]

Originally Posted by Professor Echo

Read my post again and think about it rather than typical message board rushing to irately counter attack.

I am not irate, or attacking you, Professor Echo. I just replied to your post. I don't mind if we disagree.

[Professor Echo]

Originally Posted by James78

I am not irate, or attacking you, Professor Echo. I just replied to your post. I don't mind if we disagree.

You're right, James, irate and attack were too harsh a description and resulted in my own instant judgmental thinking. Well, as Osgood Fielding III once said, "Nobody's perfect."

[thuata]

Do we even know for sure if the BFI dropped Birth of a Nation for political reasons ?
With it being in print for years and also being available from Eureka I just assumed it no longer was making enough money (it's an important film, but it's not especially appealing and I can't imagine it being a strong seller after five years).
Perhaps they just felt it needed updated editorial work, in any case it's ridiculous to imply a parallel between this and Stalin rewriting history, we're living in an age of unprecedented access to information (valid or not) and the film is still available as we speak from Eureka without making any waves.

[Yami]

As far as I'm aware, the BFI have made no comment and I sincerely doubt it was selling like hot cakes; if it was then surely we would have got releases of Way Down East or Orphans of the Storm.

At the end of the day, it's up to a label what films they want to be associated with and it's up to a retailer to decide what they stock. It's not censorship.

[Aclea]

It may simply be out of stock and awaiting a repressing or a decision on whether it's worth repressing if there's only a short time let on the licence as far as the BFI Shop is concerned - quite a few titles have suffered repressing problems and delays this year. The title is still available from other retailers, with one exception - and as for that, as I wrote on the film's dedicated thread...

After they've rightly been called out many times in the past for selling Holocaust denial and other hate speech propaganda books and memorabilia, I think this is a PR move from Amazon to avoid any "Yes, but what about..?" editorials that might distract attention from the awards buzz when their very impressive looking Barry Jenkins series The Underground Railroad starts. Since both he and Spike Lee have publicly discussed keeping the film in circulation while giving it appropriate historical and cultural context (which both BFI and Eureka editions provide), it won't be at the filmmaker's request but a bit of pre-emptive marketing ass covering. Not so much 'censorship' as a retailer exercising their right to decide what it is in their own interests to sell.

I suspect in a year or so once the awards season is over they'll quietly start selling it again.

[Professor Echo]

Originally Posted by thuata

Do we even know for sure if the BFI dropped Birth of a Nation for political reasons ?
With it being in print for years and also being available from Eureka I just assumed it no longer was making enough money (it's an important film, but it's not especially appealing and I can't imagine it being a strong seller after five years).
Perhaps they just felt it needed updated editorial work, in any case it's ridiculous to imply a parallel between this and Stalin rewriting history, we're living in an age of unprecedented access to information (valid or not) and the film is still available as we speak from Eureka without making any waves.

Yes, here I am again after my bold proclamation that I would not post about this anymore, so here is my second (and counting?) last word on the subject, hahaha.

I feel my post is being misinterpreted and by extension, me as well. For the record:

Note that I said IF situations of burying less enlightened aspects of our past culture starts getting out of hand, it COULD eventually develop into issues of censorship and other very dangerous precedents being set. I was not referring to BIRTH OF A NATION specifically nor the BFI currently not selling it, for whatever reason. I was just offering that it MIGHT be symbolic of a trend that I myself would not like to witness. The fact that this comes after TCM more or less announced that they would never air BIRTH again piqued my concern. Sorry if I didn't make that clear.

For better or worse, I'm as liberal as they come, a bleeding heart liberal actually, and yes BIRTH OF A NATION is very reprehensible to me in a lot of ways. But I don't advocate censorship, banning, tearing it all down, burying it or in anyway trying to change history, no matter how flawed and unenlightened it may be. That's where I can easily see some of this heading, but I was not saying THAT'S WHERE WE ARE ALREADY nor including BFI for being a part of it.

Anyway, I personally have trouble watching BIRTH and likely won't ever again, but I really don't want it or things like it to vanish.

Now back on topic: Why does BFI have such lousy covers and does anyone have any idea if there will be a standard edition of EQUUS once the LE has sold out? Or if there have been any hints dropped about it coming from another label?

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by Professor Echo

Yes, here I am again after my bold proclamation that I would not post about this anymore, so here is my second (and counting?) last word on the subject, hahaha.

I feel my post is being misinterpreted and by extension, me as well. For the record:

Note that I said IF situations of burying less enlightened aspects of our past culture starts getting out of hand, it COULD eventually develop into issues of censorship and other very dangerous precedents being set. I was not referring to BIRTH OF A NATION specifically nor the BFI currently not selling it, for whatever reason. I was just offering that it MIGHT be symbolic of a trend that I myself would not like to witness. The fact that this comes after TCM more or less announced that they would never air BIRTH again piqued my concern. Sorry if I didn't make that clear.

For better or worse, I'm as liberal as they come, a bleeding heart liberal actually, and yes BIRTH OF A NATION is very reprehensible to me in a lot of ways. But I don't advocate censorship, banning, tearing it all down, burying it or in anyway trying to change history, no matter how flawed and unenlightened it may be. That's where I can easily see some of this heading, but I was not saying THAT'S WHERE WE ARE ALREADY nor including BFI for being a part of it.

Anyway, I personally have trouble watching BIRTH and likely won't ever again, but I really don't want it or things like it to vanish.

Now back on topic: Why does BFI have such lousy covers and does anyone have any idea if there will be a standard edition of EQUUS once the LE has sold out? Or if there have been any hints dropped about it coming from another label?

^This 100%. Restricting access to art is absolutely censorship. However people try to dress it up. It should be up to the individual to decide if they watch.

[Yami]

"Restricting access" to art is not the definition of censorship, unless you think that every film that BFI / MoC / Criterion / insert label here have allowed to go out of print or have chosen not to release is being censored. The commercial prospects of Birth of a Nation have taken a hit in the current climate; films go in-and-out of fashion with the times. It has had two high quality Blu-Ray releases on the market for most of a decade - it's one of the lucky ones.

[Yami]

Originally Posted by Professor Echo

Now back on topic: Why does BFI have such lousy covers and does anyone have any idea if there will be a standard edition of EQUUS once the LE has sold out? Or if there have been any hints dropped about it coming from another label?

The BFI said back in June that "the first edition will now be a 2-disc Ltd Ed (3,000 copies only), including Tony Palmer's acclaimed documentary In From The Cold? A Portrait Of Richard Burton." So I imagine that there will be a standard release without that second disc

[oddbox83]

Originally Posted by Yami

It has had two high quality Blu-Ray releases on the market for most of a decade - it's one of the lucky ones.

The thing here is though, if a release goes OOP normally it'll still have it's page on Amazon for Marketplace sellers to sell it.

That both the BFI and MOC pages have vanished is surely indicative of something more than simply going OOP. It could just be to review their status and add a warning?

Also it might not be a coincidence it's Black History Month which the BFI have big involvement with. It's just occurred to me that they might have hidden it away for the duration, which is understandable. Amazon's removal of the MOC edition could be in error.

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by Yami

"Restricting access" to art is not the definition of censorship, unless you think that every film that BFI / MoC / Criterion / insert label here have allowed to go out of print or have chosen not to release is being censored. The commercial prospects of Birth of a Nation have taken a hit in the current climate; films go in-and-out of fashion with the times. It has had two high quality Blu-Ray releases on the market for most of a decade - it's one of the lucky ones.

It’s deciding people can’t see said content because of current social situations. It’s censorship imo. The few deciding for the many.

[Yami]

Originally Posted by oddbox83

The thing here is though, if a release goes OOP normally it'll still have it's page on Amazon for Marketplace sellers to sell it.

That both the BFI and MOC pages have vanished is surely indicative of something more than simply going OOP.

Amazon have the freedom to choose what products they wish to sell; while I'd agree that they've not exactly been consistent on this issue, I'm sure that we'd all agree that no retailer can or should be forced to stock a product.

Originally Posted by Steedeel

It’s deciding people can’t see said content because of current social situations. It’s censorship imo. The few deciding for the many.

Except they can see it - there are still numerous home video editions available, it's on YouTube and other streaming outlets. We don't even know if the BFI release is officially OOP, but five years is a fairly standard length of time for a release to be in print before the distributor decides whether it is worth renewing the licence. The BFI might have sensibly concluded that the majority who would have bought it has already done so and that it would be a loss to keep it in print for another half decade.

Current affairs have always influenced the commercial prospects of a release, without it being considered censorship. There's no way that Venice and Cesar-award winner J'Accuse would have went without a US/UK release ten or twenty years ago, but it's clear that no distributor wants to be associated with Roman Polanski in the current market. That's not censorship, it's just business.

[Professor Echo]

Originally Posted by Yami

The BFI said back in June that "the first edition will now be a 2-disc Ltd Ed (3,000 copies only), including Tony Palmer's acclaimed documentary In From The Cold? A Portrait Of Richard Burton." So I imagine that there will be a standard release without that second disc

Hmm, I love Burton, but I'm not sure I need to see a docu on him after having read all about his tough times and bad decisions. I'm at the point now where his acting and performances are the the things I find most attractive. Thanks for your info. It sounds like I'll be playing the waiting game.

[Modman]

Originally Posted by oddbox83

That both the BFI and MOC pages have vanished is surely indicative of something more than simply going OOP. It could just be to review their status and add a warning?

Really gone from MOC pages? My eyes must be deceiving me!

https://eurekavideo.co.uk/movie/the-birth-of-a-nation/

[oddbox83]

Originally Posted by Modman

Really gone from MOC pages? My eyes must be deceiving me!

https://eurekavideo.co.uk/movie/the-birth-of-a-nation/

From Amazon.

The fact the BFI release is gone from their own site, but the MOC is still on Eureka's is why I say the Amazon page being removed for the MOC version could be in error. It certainly looks plausible the BFI removal is a decision that's been made in conjunction with the BFI's other endeavours, of which black voices are a big part.

If this is indeed why, it probably won't be a permanent thing. I don't agree with censorship on one hand, but on the other it would make perfect sense in this context.