HDR Discussion Thread

[RockyIII]

Yup, I even updated my signature

[PeterTHX]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Goes without saying but I really hope they get a handle on this black level problem. Not just for my own circumstances (as/when the Euro ZD9's finally gets the DV update) but for the wider user base, all them extra metadatas and bits and whatever are great but a niggly distraction can sometimes be the most annoying thing of all. If, after all this, the Sony sets also have this problem then I'll stick with HDR10 and be done with it.

I haven't seen any elevated blacks in the Netflix material FWIW.

[RockyIII]

Originally Posted by PeterTHX

I haven't seen any elevated blacks in the Netflix material FWIW.

Oh it's there on Netflix too. Just watch any episode of Stranger Things Season 3 or Altered Carbon. Every time there is a quick cut in between scenes the screen never goes totally black like it does in HDR10.

[Waboman]

Originally Posted by RockyIII

Oh it's there on Netflix too. Just watch any episode of Stranger Things Season 3 or Altered Carbon. Every time there is a quick cut in between scenes the screen never goes totally black like it does in HDR10.

There's your elevated black problem. You're living in the future.

[Rec2020]

Originally Posted by RockyIII

Oh it's there on Netflix too. Just watch any episode of Stranger Things Season 3 or Altered Carbon. Every time there is a quick cut in between scenes the screen never goes totally black like it does in HDR10.

I believe the issue occurs only from an HDMI source. So it depends what you're streaming it from. If you're streaming from your TV's native app, you shouldn't be experiencing the issue.

But I haven't watched enough Netflix to be an expert on the matter.

[shield80]

That's true from what I have read about it, only HDMI source you get the elevated blacks, so if you stream from your LG 4K player then you get elevated blacks if you use Netflix app from the tv it should not be a problem.

[Staying Salty]

Originally Posted by StayingSalty

I don’t believe this is correct. There in only one Dolby Vision encode on a 4K disk and a Dolby Vision disc will provide the optimal view on a Dolby Vision display. I follow Blu-ray.com regularly, and there have been no mention of multiple trim passes to match a consumer display.

This ^ was my response to post indicating that up to 200 trim passes were made to match the different displays.
Below is the response to my post.

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/465-hi...l#post55743424

Originally Posted by Tom Roper

They can make up to 4 trim passes, 100 nit, 600 nit, 2000 nit, 4000 nit. The more trim passes the less the tv has to "split the difference" between the mastering brightness and the tv.

The process works like this, an automated analysis pass to generate metadata. The metadata guides how the content management unit (CMU) makes the transformation. The CMU is the functional equivalent of the DV chip inside each DV enabled tv.

Though not required, you can trim your grade at up to four different peak luminance levels. If you take that extra step, DV tvs will use the artistic guidance metadata to ensure the creative intent is preserved as closely as possible.

For example, if a program is graded relative to a 4000 nit display, along with a 100 nit rec 709 trim pass, then a DV tv with 750 nit peak output will reference the 100 nit trim pass artistic guidance metadata to come up with the best way of splitting the difference. On the other hand if you did 3 trim passes, 100, 600, 1000, then a 750 nit tv would be able to use the 600 and 1000 metadata to get the closest approximation.
***************************************

Fast forward to 2018......

This sounds like gobbledy gook to me. I deleted his statements about live broadcasts. I want to understand his statements on DoVi.

[gkolb]

Originally Posted by Staying Salty

This ^ was my response to post indicating that up to 200 trim passes were made to match the different displays.
Below is the response to my post.

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/465-hi...l#post55743424

This sounds like gobbledy gook to me. I deleted his statements about live broadcasts. I want to understand his statements on DoVi.

Is he confusing / co-mingling the passes for Dolby Cinema presentations with the home Dolby Vision pass? The 100 nit and 600 nit passes sound like Cinema trims for projector vs laser installations.

Then he mentions 1000 nit or 4000 nit, that sounds like the Rec. 2020 container options for an HDR disc in home. As we have seen presented a few days ago, the highest nit present on some recent disc releases have fallen far below the container maximum for that disc.

I agree that he sounds like he's spouting gobbledy gook.

[Penton-Man]

https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...r#post14668604

follow-up to ^ for LA locals….https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/be...-april-1087242

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Staying Salty

This ^ was my response to post indicating that up to 200 trim passes were made to match the different displays.
Below is the response to my post.

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/465-hi...l#post55743424

This sounds like gobbledy gook to me. I deleted his statements about live broadcasts. I want to understand his statements on DoVi.

DoVi supports multiple peak luminance levels of trim and for that matter color choices (BT.2020,ST.2084,Full….or P3,D65,St.2084,Full) for different home deliverables. But to address further on up the page mrtickleuk’s concerns, most would consider this to be an advantage rather than a detriment as additional trims take very little time when compared to the original grade.

For those lacking real world experience in doing so, Dolby offers a course with a colorist here.

P.S.
The poster’s name, Tom R. sounds familiar? Wasn’t he the fellow who was arguing awhile back on AVS when he first got involved in HDR that his TV, the Samsung JS8500 wasn’t PQ (SMPTE ST. 2084) capable, when on the contrary, it actually is.

A co-member of both forums, can’t recall now if it was ray0414? or perhaps someone else sent me the link to the post back in 2015 which I found a bit humorous since it was a well known fact throughout Hollywood, especially at Fox Innovation Lab, that the Samsung TV could in fact handle ST. 2084.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by gkolb

gobbledy gook.

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/166-lc...l#post36423306

For one thing, there is no SMPTE BT. 2084

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

cue LordoftheRings
where’s Jimmy Buffet YouTubes to get us all in the mood?
Mark Schubin may raffle off his flip flops when he runs out of quiz questions.

Geez, Lord, are you ill, flu, etc.?
I never saw you miss the opportunity before . Allow me , even a day late, if only for Waboman….

MARGARITAVILLE - YouTube

[Staying Salty]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

DoVi supports multiple peak luminance levels of trim and for that matter color choices (BT.2020,ST.2084,Full….or P3,D65,St.2084,Full) for different home deliverables. But to address further on up the page mrtickleuk’s concerns, most would consider this to be an advantage rather than a detriment as additional trims take very little time when compared to the original grade.

Thanks, I was getting hung up on the idea that these multiple passes were for only DoVi discs. If I understand correctly, the multiple passes allow for different home deliverables.

[Waboman]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Geez, Lord, are you ill, flu, etc.?
I never saw you miss the opportunity before . Allow me , even a day late, if only for Waboman….

MARGARITAVILLE - YouTube

Fins to the left, fins to the right. It's an HDR party here at BD.com tonight.

[ray0414]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

DoVi supports multiple peak luminance levels of trim and for that matter color choices (BT.2020,ST.2084,Full….or P3,D65,St.2084,Full) for different home deliverables. But to address further on up the page mrtickleuk’s concerns, most would consider this to be an advantage rather than a detriment as additional trims take very little time when compared to the original grade.

For those lacking real world experience in doing so, Dolby offers a course with a colorist here.

P.S.
The poster’s name, Tom R. sounds familiar? Wasn’t he the fellow who was arguing awhile back on AVS when he first got involved in HDR that his TV, the Samsung JS8500 wasn’t PQ (SMPTE ST. 2084) capable, when on the contrary, it actually is.

A co-member of both forums, can’t recall now if it was ray0414? or perhaps someone else sent me the link to the post back in 2015 which I found a bit humorous since it was a well known fact throughout Hollywood, especially at Fox Innovation Lab, that the Samsung TV could in fact handle ST. 2084.

Early days of HDR, he didn't know the Js8500 was an HDR tv. There wasn't much advertisement back then for it, and I believe no hdr mentions on the boxes how they do now. He actually started using his Js8500 as his grading monitor in his early days of HDR grading. He's actually a pretty smart guy as he does his own hdr grading of his own 4k footage (as I mentioned above) . But I don't believe he has graded Dolby Vision because that's only possible if your in a studio and can pay royalties.

He also graded "Into the Cave of wonders" for the creator of that documentary who ended up selling the hdr graded version to Sony, who used clips of Tom's HDR grade on Sony tvs at best buy and other demo halls. So, anyone else here have any of that type of claim to fame with their hdr experience? Or just couch critiqing like me?

(not saying he's 100% right, but he's pretty knowledgeable and he's always open to discussing and learning)

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Staying Salty

Thanks, I was getting hung up on the idea that these multiple passes were for only DoVi discs. If I understand correctly, the multiple passes allow for different home deliverables.

If the content creator so chooses, he/she indeed can do multiple peak luminance level trims for a particular DoVi Ultra HD movie. It’s just not quite the pain as concluded on that thread.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by ray0414

Early days of HDR, he didn't know the Js8500 was an HDR tv. There wasn't much advertisement back then for it, and I believe no hdr mentions on the boxes how they do now. He actually started using his Js8500 as his grading monitor in his early days of HDR grading. He's actually a pretty smart guy as he does his own hdr grading of his own 4k footage (as I mentioned above) . But I don't believe he has graded Dolby Vision because that's only possible if your in a studio and can pay royalties.

He also graded "Into the Cave of wonders" for the creator of that documentary who ended up selling the hdr graded version to Sony, who used clips of Tom's HDR grade on Sony tvs at best buy and other demo halls. So, anyone else here have any of that type of claim to fame with their hdr experience? Or just couch critiqing like me?

(not saying he's 100% right, but he's pretty knowledgeable and he's always open to discussing and learning)

Nice speech.

I apologize for perhaps sounding a bit harsh but when checking my old PMs to confirm whether or not my recollection in the P.S. of the above post was accurate and I wasn’t confusing membership over there, I discovered I had also received another message awhile back in which Tom apparently posted this opinion over there and I admit rubbed me the wrong way when I re-read it –

….”I don't hide that I am cynical about the decision to use high nits mastering monitors that create a need for remapping partly to accommodate certain less bright display technologies that can't meet the targets at the core of the concept. The cynicism says, they paid for the brand, give 'em the license. The benefit of scaling/tone mapping is thus oversold when it is actually an accommodation. If the mastering was done on monitors that spec'd more closely to the best consumer displays, tone mapping and scaling would not be needed. Consumer HDR displays are usually far less different from each other than they are from 4000 nit Pulsars.”

With regards to the subject of HDR (or EDR as Dolby initially referred to it as), I’m not so sure how much more “accommodating” Dolby could be starting with the $$$ invested in HDR R&D without becoming an outright charitable [501(c)(3)] organization. There is an internal saying within Dolby - “Lead Generously” which I think has been shown to be the case in multiple areas.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by ray0414

So, anyone else here have any of that type of claim to fame with their hdr experience? Or just couch critiqing like me?

What’s HDR? I certainly have never heard of it.
zmary, 2themax, you familiar?

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Waboman

Fins to the left, fins to the right. It's an HDR party here at BD.com tonight.

Yeah, and

Come Monday - Jimmy Buffett - YouTube

[ray0414]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

What’s HDR? I certainly have never heard of it.
zmary, 2themax, you familiar?

We got a couple but I wish there was more. Wonder if 2themax has any grading experience? Besides EvLee, avs doesn't have many either. There was another knowledgeable grader that was a frequent poster but was Banned back in the fall. Wish we could get him over here (RLburnside)