The Digital Bits; "Grain is supposed to be there!"

[BStecke]

http://www.thedigitalbits.com/mytwocentsa155.html

To many of us, this isn't anything new, but to some, and I know you're out there, this could clear some things up.

Executive summary:

People new to Blu-ray have been complaining to thedigitalbits of picture "noise" on catalog films on Blu-ray. What they are seeing is actually film grain. Having never seen older films in a theater, they don't realize that. Film is shot on photochemical stock, so a film frame is comprised of tiny silver particles, and that is not a defect on the disc. However, many people expect older films to look as clean as modern ones.

This is probably going to be the main point enthusiasts and studios must explain to consumers. Currently, in response to feedback, studios are often applying excessive digital noise reduction to catalog films (and sometimes new releases) to remove grain, or refraining from releasing them altogether.

Last paragraph:

This isn't just a Blu-ray issue, it's going to affect ALL high-definition presentations of older films, if we allow it to. Film enthusiasts (and those at the studios who actually CARE about and respect the integrity of older films) need to really start educating people on this subject - new Blu-ray consumers, friends and family, fellow studio employees. FILM IS SUPPOSED TO LOOK LIKE FILM. Older titles on Blu-ray are NOT supposed to look perfect, as if they were shot today on video! The Blu-ray presentation should replicate, as closely as possible, the best original theatrical experience of the film. THAT'S the goal. I'll tell you right now, this is an important issue, just as anamorphic enhancement and presenting films in their original aspect ratios on DVD were before it. As we did with those issues, you better believe it's something the staff here at The Digital Bits will take up as a crusade with the Hollywood studios if it becomes necessary. So you studio folks... let's just say that you'd better get this one right, or you'll definitely be hearing about it from us in the months ahead (and, we suspect, from many others as well).

There's a lot more to the article, but the whole article can't be posted due to copyright issues. It's worth a read.

[stockstar1138]

excellent article. bill hunt ftw!

[BStecke]

Just curious . . . if you cite the source, doesn't that nix copyright issues?

[stockstar1138]

Originally Posted by BStecke

Just curious . . . if you cite the source, doesn't that nix copyright issues?

i don't know internet legal code, but i would assume that posting up the full article is not the fair thing to do as it takes hits away from thedigitalbits.com, because people can read the full article that you copied on blu-ray.com

[BStecke]

Originally Posted by stockstar1138

i don't know internet legal code, but i would assume that posting up the full article is not the fair thing to do as it takes hits away from thedigitalbits.com, because people can read the full article that you copied on blu-ray.com

I see, I see. Well . . . I edited my original post so people know there's more to the article. It's a decent length, lots of good info. Always good to know there's somebody with contacts willing to fight for us people who actually know what we're doing

[Clark Kent]

I think for many people their only point of reference for what High Definition should look before they buy into Blu-ray is sports like Golf and the NFL shot on HD cameras in brightly lit environments from their local affiliate. Film is really a completely different medium to shoot on and the grain structure is an integral part of film's look.

[darkpoet25]

Originally Posted by Clark Kent

I think for many people their only point of reference for what High Definition should look before they buy into Blu-ray is sports like Golf and the NFL shot on HD cameras in brightly lit environments from their local affiliate. Film is really a completely different medium to shoot on and the grain structure is an integral part of film's look.

Yet I still don't see this stopping all the damn "Why does this _______ insert movie,have grain on it?" threads. Most people don't realise that when you go from watching a format that is 480p to 1080p there is more detail that will show up in the film. I hope the studios over time realise that as the market for Blu Ray grows, more and more people will want to own the classics like Lawrence Of Arabia, A Passage To India, The Wizard Of Oz, etc. On a side note it's great to see that Criterion will be releasing on Blu. Here's hoping that This Is Spinal Tap, and Dazed and Confused are two more titles that get released. Both comedy classics.

[stockstar1138]

Originally Posted by darkpoet25

Yet I still don't see this stopping all the damn "Why does this _______ insert movie,have grain on it?" threads. Most people don't realise that when you go from watching a format that is 480p to 1080p there is more detail that will show up in the film. I hope the studios over time realise that as the market for Blu Ray grows, more and more people will want to own the classics like Lawrence Of Arabia, A Passage To India, The Wizard Of Oz, etc. On a side note it's great to see that Criterion will be releasing on Blu. Here's hoping that This Is Spinal Tap, and Dazed and Confused are two more titles that get released. Both comedy classics.

isn't dazed and confused already out on HD DVD?

[U4K61]

Originally Posted by binarymelon

Misleading title. Grain is not supposed to be there. It's the result of an imperfect medium. Should it be removed after the fact? No, but it should also not be added because of 'artistic vision'. Fear of progress never got anyone anywhere.

Originally Posted by dialog_gvf

If people want the grain removed, then they should demand the setting on their player/TV to remove it.

The problem is that some people are demanding their personal preferance be imposed on everyone. They don't want grain, therefore grain should be removed for the disc. And the bean counters will generally handle that demand by authorizing only a quick and cheap scrub that softens the picture and removes a ton of detail.

And that isn't theoretical. We now have plenty of Warner titles (and even at least one New Line) that exhibit this.

Soft Pictures

A quote from Joe Kane on LaserDisc: "For several years LaserDisc player manufactures were putting 'Soft Picture' to get rid of high frequency information, the fine detail associated with LaserDiscs... they made LaserDisc look more like VHS tapes rather then tell you to turn down the Sharpness control... Warner Atlantic Electric... had a higher frequency detail then any other at the time... most reviewers pronounced them noisy, to a point of being unwatchable...[by] people who diden't know how to set their sharpness control". They did not know a good thing when they saw it, and the extra PQ was taken out on later discs. Complain too much about High Def film grain, and they might smooth it over so it looks more like DVD. 300 HD vs DVD.

LaserDisc Menory Lane

• LaserDisc UK Web Site
• LaserDisc Database

Back to Getting Started HD POST

[Squozen]

Originally Posted by Craig Ruchman

Humm, an old quote from Joe Kane on LaserDisc. "For several years LaserDisc player manufactures were putting 'Soft Picture' to get rid of high frequency information, the fine detail associated with LaserDiscs... they made LaserDisc look more like VHS tapes rather then tell you to turn down the Sharpness control... Warner Atlantic Electric... had a higher frequency detail then any other at the time... most reviewers pronounced them noisy, to a point of being unwatchable...[by] people who diden't know how to set their sharpness control". They did not know a good thing when they saw it, and the extra PQ was taken out on later discs. Complain too much about High Deff film grain, and they might smooth it over so it looks more like DVD.

Yep, my Pioneer LD player had an 'HQ' button on the front that lowered the quality. Fight the good fight, friends! Death to sharpness controls, and death to DNR!

[Cruyff14]

Originally Posted by Craig Ruchman

most reviewers pronounced them noisy

Just like a lot of "reviewers" now complain if grain is visible. It's very disappointing that these so called reviewers do not make an effort to educate themselves. Perhaps the studios should add a featurette to problematic releases (ie grainy movies or where the DP used special filters etc.) which explains why a film looks the way it looks.

[Grubert]

Originally Posted by BStecke

I see, I see. Well . . . I edited my original post so people know there's more to the article. It's a decent length, lots of good info. Always good to know there's somebody with contacts willing to fight for us people who actually know what we're doing

I have summarised the editorial so that people can get the gist of it.

And I agree with Bill Hunt - this is going to be a long, thankless fight to educate people to make them prefer a picture with less eye-candy.

It's like trying to persuade a Bose owner to switch to B&W.

[Blaumann]

Good article.

Save the grain!

[binarymelon]

Misleading title. Grain is not supposed to be there. It's the result of an imperfect medium. Should it be removed after the fact? No, but it should also not be added because of 'artistic vision'. Fear of progress never got anyone anywhere.

[Maximus]

Originally Posted by Grubert

I have summarised the editorial so that people can get the gist of it.

And I agree with Bill Hunt - this is going to be a long, thankless fight to educate people to make them prefer a picture with less eye-candy.

It's like trying to persuade a Bose owner to switch to B&W.

Yeah, but those 'bass modules' are so good...

Hmm, this is going to be one long battle.

[Maximus]

Originally Posted by binarymelon

Misleading title. Grain is not supposed to be there. It's the result of an imperfect medium. Should it be removed after the fact? No, but it should also not be added because of 'artistic vision'. Fear of progress never got anyone anywhere.

Rubbish, grain is part of movie making, if you don't like it stick to video.

[Blaumann]

Grain has a vibe

The Rock, Bay’s second film after Bad Boys, was released in 1996. The Blu-ray edition appears grainy in certain shots, but Bay likes it that way. He uses it as an artistic choice, even in his more recent film.

“Yeah, there’s some grain, pushing film, shooting at night,” he said. “There’s actually some grain in Transformers. We pushed it just a little too much. I don’t mind grain. Grain has a vibe.”

http://www.homemediamagazine.com/new...ticle_ID=12086

[werewuf]

Originally Posted by binarymelon

Misleading title. Grain is not supposed to be there. It's the result of an imperfect medium. Should it be removed after the fact? No, but it should also not be added because of 'artistic vision'. Fear of progress never got anyone anywhere.

Actually, digital is the imperfect medium.....

[binarymelon]

Originally Posted by werewuf

Actually, digital is the imperfect medium.....

For storage, yes. But digital is the easiest and most accurate way to reproduce the stored information. No matter how accurate (which it isn't) an analog storage medium is ,we cannot develop a device with technology we will ever see in our lifetime, that can accurately transfer that information.

[Joe Cain]

Originally Posted by binarymelon

Misleading title. Grain is not supposed to be there. It's the result of an imperfect medium. Should it be removed after the fact? No, but it should also not be added because of 'artistic vision'. Fear of progress never got anyone anywhere.

Life is an imperfect medium. Fear of art never got anyone anywhere, either.