HDR Discussion Thread

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Well, that one kinda is. There's very little of anything that could be called HDR in Skull
Island IMO.

more HDR deliverables abiding by creative intent –
Dunkirk – MaxCLL 323 nits
Blade Runner 2019 (Sony Pictures – UK) – MaxCLL 457 nits
Jupiter Ascending – MaxCLL 345 nits

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

The first part doesn't deviate from what I said at all,

Did I say otherwise? I was simply documenting on Blu-ray.com a deeper dive into current Netflix capture requirements given the superficial nature of some twitter reactions by others to the Variety article, since it seems twitter is such a powerful tool these days.

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Lol at shoehorning TG2 into every possible reply though

That goes without saying. I serve other Brits too, see –

Originally Posted by Agent Kay

Too much on topic stuff Penton, back to top gun

[Penton-Man]

since to the best of my knowledge Robert has not moved on this proposal (the elephant in the room) – https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...e#post16871794

besides DanBa's good stuff , seems the twitter is good for something, this just passed to me, publicly announcing one attempt at answering the age old video enthusiast question - https://twitter.com/_MichaelZink/sta...60248178585600

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

besides DanBa's good stuff , seems the twitter is good for something, this just passed to me, publicly announcing one attempt at answering the age old video enthusiast question - https://twitter.com/_MichaelZink/sta...60248178585600

I see that Zink had pretty much the same response to that "secrets of 8K upscaling" article as I did, heh: https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...5#post17062825 - albeit summed up in a more succinct manner.

https://twitter.com/_MichaelZink/sta...78755540930560

Seems to be a huge 8K sceptic judging from the twitters so I eagerly await his findings with that 4K vs 8K test.

Oh, er, something something Top Gun, something something pole

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

I see that Zink had pretty much the same response to that "secrets of 8K upscaling" article as I did, heh: https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...5#post17062825 - albeit summed up in a more succinct manner.

https://twitter.com/_MichaelZink/sta...78755540930560

Seems to be a huge 8K sceptic judging from the twitters so I eagerly await his findings with that 4K vs 8K test.

marketing aside, to be fair to Robert and prospective 8K tv buyers in the sense of the final outcome and answering the real world question as to ‘do I fork out my money or not for an 8K tv’, it would have been a more comprehensive experiment if they’d also included two similar sized 4K and 8K tvs side-by-side at differing seating distance(s) showing non-native 8K content

also, keep in mind, AI upscaling is not mature and it should continue to improve over the course of time

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Oh, er, something something Top Gun, something something pole

easy, poles galore on one location for Top Gun: Maverick in Los Angeles last autumn - https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...e#post16066459

[mrtickleuk]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

I think you're confusing the point a little here, as HDR - as in the actual EOTF, not the wider concept of higher dynamic range - was never, ever planned for by any of those filmmakers on any of those films as it simply didn't exist, and the range that a film negative ultimately captures is NOT the same thing as what would've seen on theatrical prints or even the best showprint made at the time.

That those films have been successfully retrofitted for HDR is down to the issue of taste, as in the taste of those doing the regrading, and the horror show that is Apollo 11's HDR grade shows what can happen when a goober is let loose at the controls of archival content.

Yes this is true, and thankyou for your detailed reply. All I really meant was that it's not the only way to end up with a HDR result. It's a lot more difficult if you don't plan from the start, and the results may not be as good, but it is possible, and we have had some brilliant results which should be celebrated, not just lamenting the disasters.

Not everyone in the industry is a fan of HDR, we can call them Luddites or grouches or whatever but I respect their position, they've worked hard to get where they are and if they feel they can achieve the visuals they desire without HDR then that's not our call to make. And if they now HAVE to work in HDR then making that process as transparent as possible for the filmmakers is vital so they can get the prep done and truly seek to take advantage of it on-set, monitoring it as they go, rather than bolting it on in a grading suite after the fact - which is still pretty much how it's done across the industry.

Very well put

[mrtickleuk]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

more HDR deliverables abiding by creative intent –
Dunkirk – MaxCLL 323 nits
Blade Runner 2019 (Sony Pictures – UK) – MaxCLL 457 nits
Jupiter Ascending – MaxCLL 345 nits

Absolutely, and I very much doubt Vincent would say any of them are "fake" since it is so well documented that they are the Director's intent.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by mrtickleuk

it is possible, and we have had some brilliant results which should be celebrated, not just lamenting the disasters.

correct (https://www.cnet.com/news/tomorrowla...-in-a-theater/,) and for that matter, it’s more than possible, as quality cinematographers who provide a thick negative have already been ‘capturing in HDR’, to use the writer’s words -> https://variety.com/2019/film/global...ix-1203407091/

and it need not change how they’ve normally shot for years in order to hand off something HDR workable to the colorist for either the theatrical or home deliverables - https://vimeo.com/131442291#t=31m01s

[PaulGo]

About Star Wars on Disney +:

A new version of the Star Wars original trilogy can now be found on Disney+, and it’s the best one yet as it fixes some of George Lucas’s previous changes.
...Star Wars Visual Comparisons points out that the 4k version required scanning the negatives from the 1997 special editions (the closest there is to the 1977 prints), which allowed Lucas to redo (and finally fix) every change since 1997. Of course, some “recent” changes stayed, such as Hayden Christensen as Anakin’s Force Ghost and Darth Vader yelling “no!” before throwing the Emperor down the pit. It’s not a perfect world, but the Disney+ version fixed a lot of mistakes and is now the most complete version of the original trilogy available.

https://screenrant.com/star-wars-mov...lucas-changes/

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by mrtickleuk

Yes this is true, and thankyou for your detailed reply. All I really meant was that it's not the only way to end up with a HDR result. It's a lot more difficult if you don't plan from the start, and the results may not be as good, but it is possible, and we have had some brilliant results which should be celebrated, not just lamenting the disasters.



Very well put

I never said it wasn't possible, nor am I implying they've all been a disaster because I'm one of the biggest marks for HDR you're going to find on this forum or anywhere else, it's been a hell of a ride these past three years. But my taste is starting to broaden and I find myself disliking Sony's Light Cannon™ grading more and more so I'm thankful that other studios haven't followed their lead. And Apollo 11 is a timely reminder that it doesn't always turn out so well.

As such I can sympathise with filmmakers having it foisted upon them, though as noted it's possible to deliver a very SDR-like appearance within the HDR space, so they don't have to go balls out with it if they don't want to whilst still fulfilling the remit of the production company. Last Jedi is one such example, and last I heard it was still up in the air that Johnson & Yedlin's next film (Knives Out) would have an HDR grade at all.

What made me laugh though with Skull Island was the director saying on social media that the HDR version was *not* his final intent, yet it's so SDR-like on the UHD disc that the mind boggles as to what he actually saw in the grading suite.

[eddievanhalen]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

I never said it wasn't possible, nor am I implying they've all been a disaster because I'm one of the biggest marks for HDR you're going to find on this forum or anywhere else, it's been a hell of a ride these past three years. But my taste is starting to broaden and I find myself disliking Sony's Light Cannon™ grading more and more so I'm thankful that other studios haven't followed their lead. And Apollo 11 is a timely reminder that it doesn't always turn out so well.

As such I can sympathise with filmmakers having it foisted upon them, though as noted it's possible to deliver a very SDR-like appearance within the HDR space, so they don't have to go balls out with it if they don't want to whilst still fulfilling the remit of the production company. Last Jedi is one such example, and last I heard it was still up in the air that Johnson & Yedlin's next film (Knives Out) would have an HDR grade at all.

What made me laugh though with Skull Island was the director saying on social media that the HDR version was *not* his final intent, yet it's so SDR-like on the UHD disc that the mind boggles as to what he actually saw in the grading suite.

Don't you think that with HDR happens much the same like with Audio's Loudness Wars were most music from the mid 1990's on are compressed to hell to make get them as loud as possible? I think people want their HDR movies to be as bright as possible, first because they don't really know what HDR is about, and second because they like to show off their friends how bright their new HDR toys look.

[Geoff D]

There's definitely a trend for some people thinking that something is only worthwhile in HDR if it's brighter than hell, yeah, not that all HDR *is* brighter than hell. That's why I dig most Disney HDR grades, they keep it reined in until the highlights are really needed and don't flood the image with hundreds of nits of APL to make it 'pop'.

[Fendergopher]

As long as you can get a SDR-esque presentation within a HDR container, then I don't see why filmmakers would necessarily have much of a problem with HDR as a tool in general. I guess the EOTF can change the general look of the footage in unexpected ways, but with some time and effort I'd imagine most directors/DPs would be able to dial in a look they'd be happy with. At the very least I don't imagine most filmmakers dislike the other specs that come with "UHD delivery" (for lack of a better name) like WCG, 10 Bit, HEVC compression.

[DanBa]

A presentation of Dolby Vision: 12-bit Dolby Vision here and there
http://www.mmsys2019.org/program/slides/walt-husak.pdf
https://twitter.com/DanielBa78/statu...94250074263552






Movie images from major film studios being captured in 16 bits, ideally the TV should receive a 16-bit video signal.
But the 16-bit data are too big for the various processing units from post-production to TV: a compression has to be done.
Dolby has adopted a "visually lossless compression" in 12-bit PQ based on the Barten ramp.
http://www.plani.fr/wp-content/uploa...ventures-1.pdf
https://wolfcrow.com/what-is-aces-ac...coding-system/
https://www.smpte.org/sites/default/...c02-Miller.pdf



There are two types of UHD Blu-ray Dolby Vision: 12-bit Dolby Vision FEL and 10-bit Dolby Vision MEL.
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/465-h...l#post58228308





For the time being, streaming services (Netflix, Disney+, Apple TV+, …) support only 10-bit Dolby Vision.

However, there is a 12-bit Dolby Vision streaming profile "Dual-Stream Dolby Vision" specified by DASH.
https://dashif-documents.azurewebsit...ASH-IF-IOP.pdf





More bits less noises: high-end Sony TVs have a 14-bit internal video processing.
http://www.sonyinsider.com/2009/09/0...ip-technology/



"Any processing of a digital image results in some data loss. Acquiring and processing an image at a higher bit depth and then reducing to the desiring bit depth will minimize the impact of the data loss and provide a file with the desired quality."
https://books.google.fr/books?id=YAK...essing&f=false

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by Fendergopher

As long as you can get a SDR-esque presentation within a HDR container, then I don't see why filmmakers would necessarily have much of a problem with HDR as a tool in general. I guess the EOTF can change the general look of the footage in unexpected ways, but with some time and effort I'd imagine most directors/DPs would be able to dial in a look they'd be happy with. At the very least I don't imagine most filmmakers dislike the other specs that come with "UHD delivery" (for lack of a better name) like WCG, 10 Bit, HEVC compression.

You'd hope so, so if Knives Out doesn't get an HDR pass then it'll be interesting to see if it gets a UHD disc release at all. As it's being finished in 4K (I think?) then that should give us 4K resolution at least.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Fendergopher

As long as you can get a SDR-esque presentation within a HDR container, then I don't see why filmmakers would necessarily have much of a problem with HDR as a tool in general.

I doubt they will either as there was no real outcry when these Netflix Delivery requirements went out last year - https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B37...5sMzNwcmc/view

In the past, what cinematographers have expressed most concern about are things like the Arri Alexa, prior to the introduction of the LF and LF mini, the Alexas not being included on the list - https://partnerhelp.netflixstudios.c...-Image-Capture

for which some DPs were offended. That fact even caused Arri to blink, so to speak - https://www.newsshooter.com/2018/02/...-the-alexa-lf/

[PeterTHX]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

But my taste is starting to broaden and I find myself disliking Sony's Light Cannon™ grading more and more so I'm thankful that other studios haven't followed their lead.

Sony grades haven't bothered me much - it's Universal that seemed to be more "light cannon" as you said.

[Kris Deering]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

You'd hope so, so if Knives Out doesn't get an HDR pass then it'll be interesting to see if it gets a UHD disc release at all. As it's being finished in 4K (I think?) then that should give us 4K resolution at least.

Hotel Artemis released 4K without HDR. Brawl in Cell Block 99 did as well. I'd be fine with them releasing 4K movies without HDR if the filmmaker didn't want an HDR grading done. They could still be 4K, 10 bit and wide color gamut without the HDR grading.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by PeterTHX

Sony grades haven't bothered me much - it's Universal that seemed to be more "light cannon" as you said.

I can recall the overzealousness of their King Kong, yes, but they rigidly stick to 1000-nit mastering (a couple of Furious examples aside) and keep the APL on the lower side for pretty much everything else of theirs I've ever seen. Not that Uni's aren't plenty bright when they want to be, but Sony's grades are on another ****ing planet; some titles have the MaxFALL in the thousands of nits which is just ridiculous. Stick the highlights into the thousands if you must, but jacking up the average brightness to that sort of level makes the grain look rough as old arseh0les. It's not a coincidence that I've never had a problem with grain looking as wild as it does on Sony discs with any other studio's UHD output, though the tone mapping or lack thereof on the ZD9 is a contributing factor. (yes, FOR ME, as I know your ZD9 is perfect for every complaint I've ever had about mine )

Originally Posted by Kris Deering

Hotel Artemis released 4K without HDR. Brawl in Cell Block 99 did as well. I'd be fine with them releasing 4K movies without HDR if the filmmaker didn't want an HDR grading done. They could still be 4K, 10 bit and wide color gamut without the HDR grading.

Heh, I watched Bad Santa 2 on UHD literally two days ago and it looked lovely, even though it's 'only' SDR 709. Thankfully it was actually shot to and finished out at 4K which is what makes the 'UHD' part worthwhile, the Blu that comes with it is rather good but the UHD smokes it for detail. So while things are at least being finished out to 4K then the lack of HDR isn't a problem for UHD disc, but as 2K finishes are still so common then releasing a UHD that's 2K upscaled and SDR709 would be taking the piss, hence the relative lack of HDR-less UHD discs.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by LordoftheRings

... The Irishman

promotion - https://www.facebook.com/644734194/p...7030559709195/

kinda like how fighter jets flying over the venue for a premiere of a movie about aviation and the men and women who fly/support them would be, thinks me