HDR Discussion Thread

[Stacey Spears]

Originally Posted by DisplayCalNoob

Wondering how well my display 10 bit panel and 12 bit processing, is handling 12 bit content.

We also have a quantization motion pattern. This was created to show an issue some older JVC projectors had where when an image was static, it looked good, but when it moved banding would show up. There are three different colors of gradations. This pattern is on the 2nd edition too.

1. The first is a skin color version. We looked at the pixel values from the FPD disc with a woman rocking back and fourth on a hammock.

2. The blueish is from Cars. There is a scene in cars where the camera pans up (or down) during one of the races. Those lights would band only in motion.

3. The 3rd was from a gradient test image we found on-line and it probably works the best.

I do think there is a lot more work in this department for better patterns. Maybe a pattern with several different skin tone gradients since skin tone is something we look at a lot.

I also really like the term tonal resolution, I think I may use that in the future, so thank you for that.

Some notes:
1. There is no filter included with this disc. We are evaluating new materials and may have something early next year with an add-on disc project we are looking at.
2. No Atmos or DTS-X audio tones. We are looking at this for an add-on disc.
3. No pop-up help this time around. We used the pop-up for configuration. e are really lacking in docs right now. The plan is to use questions from everyone to focus our doc writing effort.
4. We are at the start of HDR calibration compared to SDR, where we have decades of knowledge in this area. Had we released a disc a year ago, I think it would be a lot less interesting. If we released a disc a year from now, it would probably be a lot better. This is why we are taking the add-on approach. The add-in will, if all goes to plan, include a new 2-disc case, cover, add-on disc, filter and possibly a getting started guide like the current disc.
5. Here is the disc cover. https://www.dropbox.com/s/x02ya3q0jf...01.hi.pdf?dl=0, would anyone be interested in replacement covers for the first and second addition that would have a 01 and 02 in the spine? For those that like things to look nicer on a shelf.
6. Here is the insert that will come in the case with basic getting started info: https://www.dropbox.com/s/x02ya3q0jf...01.hi.pdf?dl=0
7. For now, the 2nd edition will still be available, but in a year or so, we may add the disc to a 4-pack.
8. The new disc will be priced around $39.99 US. Once we have the add-on, new case, etc..., that price will be $47.95. Can anyone guess why $47.95? The first person to post that answer will get a free copy of the disc. We will offer all of that to those who have the disc, for the price different + shipping.
9. We are looking at making a custom case for the add-on. We want to remove the 4K from the case as it is UHD. We are also looking at the idea of a custom color. Something in the red / orang'ish department. Something close to the molten metal. Would everyone be okay with a different color or do you want black so you don't have an odd color in your collection of discs?
10. This will be the first time that many have seen HDR test patterns for resolution. One goal of a test pattern is to make an artifact easier to see. I mention this because some will be somewhat disappointed when they see what their display does. e.g. chroma resolution is pretty bad on some HDR displays and players. But we are not very sensitive to color resolution. While implementing a new chroma noise reduction algorithm in the RED SDK, I had a bug early on that was pretty nasty if you looked at just the blue channel. However, when looking at an RGB image, you did not see it. The blue channel looked like a stereo image with no glasses on, it was that bad. But it shows how we don't do well detecting subtle color differences. FYI, that bug was fixed long before the SDK/RCX ever shipped.

I want to say thank you to everyone for questions and feedback.

I do have a question for everyone. What flavors of Atmos and DTS-X would you like to see covered for setting levels? e.g. 7.2.4? How many layouts should we include, if we are able to add audio tones.

Does Blu-ray.com have give away / contests? We will be providing copies to various magazines and forums to give away. If so, can someone from Blu-ray.com ping me? This way we know where to send the copies for give away.

[FilmFreakosaurus]

Originally Posted by Stacey Spears

We also have a quantization motion pattern. This was created to show an issue some older JVC projectors had where when an image was static, it looked good, but when it moved banding would show up. There are three different colors of gradations. This pattern is on the 2nd edition too.

1. The first is a skin color version. We looked at the pixel values from the FPD disc with a woman rocking back and fourth on a hammock.

2. The blueish is from Cars. There is a scene in cars where the camera pans up (or down) during one of the races. Those lights would band only in motion.

3. The 3rd was from a gradient test image we found on-line and it probably works the best.

I do think there is a lot more work in this department for better patterns. Maybe a pattern with several different skin tone gradients since skin tone is something we look at a lot.

I also really like the term tonal resolution, I think I may use that in the future, so thank you for that.

Some notes:
1. There is no filter included with this disc. We are evaluating new materials and may have something early next year with an add-on disc project we are looking at.
2. No Atmos or DTS-X audio tones. We are looking at this for an add-on disc.
3. No pop-up help this time around. We used the pop-up for configuration. e are really lacking in docs right now. The plan is to use questions from everyone to focus our doc writing effort.
4. We are at the start of HDR calibration compared to SDR, where we have decades of knowledge in this area. Had we released a disc a year ago, I think it would be a lot less interesting. If we released a disc a year from now, it would probably be a lot better. This is why we are taking the add-on approach. The add-in will, if all goes to plan, include a new 2-disc case, cover, add-on disc, filter and possibly a getting started guide like the current disc.
5. Here is the disc cover. https://www.dropbox.com/s/x02ya3q0jf...01.hi.pdf?dl=0, would anyone be interested in replacement covers for the first and second addition that would have a 01 and 02 in the spine? For those that like things to look nicer on a shelf.
6. Here is the insert that will come in the case with basic getting started info: https://www.dropbox.com/s/x02ya3q0jf...01.hi.pdf?dl=0
7. For now, the 2nd edition will still be available, but in a year or so, we may add the disc to a 4-pack.
8. The new disc will be priced around $39.99 US. Once we have the add-on, new case, etc..., that price will be $47.95. Can anyone guess why $47.95? The first person to post that answer will get a free copy of the disc. We will offer all of that to those who have the disc, for the price different + shipping.
9. We are looking at making a custom case for the add-on. We want to remove the 4K from the case as it is UHD. We are also looking at the idea of a custom color. Something in the red / orang'ish department. Something close to the molten metal. Would everyone be okay with a different color or do you want black so you don't have an odd color in your collection of discs?

I want to say thank you to everyone for questions and feedback.

I do have a question for everyone. What flavors of Atmos and DTS-X would you like to see covered for setting levels? e.g. 7.2.4? How many layouts should we include, if we are able to add audio tones.

Does Blu-ray.com have give away / contests? We will be providing copies to various magazines and forums to give away. If so, can someone from Blu-ray.com ping me? This way we know where to send the copies for give away.

As for tones and call-outs in Dolby Atmos, I would use Dolby's own speaker look up table configuration layout diagrams as a guide...

5.1.2
5.1.4
5.1.4 + Front Wide
7.1.2
7.1.4
9.1.2
9.1.4
9.1.6
11.1.8

Etc.

24.1.10, of course.

Maybe in a while DTS will release coding for DTS: X Pro and we can see what that can do. Otherwise, it's 5.1.2 up to 7.1.4 only for "regular" DTS: X.

[Geoff D]

Stacey, you've probably already said that you had David M (Fidelity in Motion) involved, but if so I've thanked that post and then promptly forgotten all about it, so it was a nice surprise to see them mentioned on the cover.

As for why the second edition will be so much cheaper, is it because the first disc was the shakedown cruise and the second will be mastered quicker and easier as a result? Or simple economies of scale, perhaps. Nah, the replicators will have a coupon day, that's gotta be it! (Joking aside, I legit still don't get how Lionsgate are able to keep pumping out 100GB DV discs like they do for the price that they charge.)

[Stacey Spears]

Originally Posted by FilmFreakosaurus

As for tones and call-outs in Dolby Atmos, I would use Dolby's own speaker look up table configuration layout diagrams as a guide...

5.1.2
5.1.4
5.1.4 + Front Wide
7.1.2
7.1.4
9.1.2
9.1.4
9.1.6
11.1.8

Etc.

24.1.10, of course.

Maybe in a while DTS will release coding for DTS: X Pro and we can see what that can do. Otherwise, it's 5.1.2 up to 7.1.4 only for "regular" DTS: X.

Thank you! Maybe you can stack rank in order of importance? That may need a disc all on its own! LOL

[Stacey Spears]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Stacey, you've probably already said that you had David M (Fidelity in Motion) involved, but if so I've thanked that post and then promptly forgotten all about it, so it was a nice surprise to see them mentioned on the cover.

David was / is fantastic! There was a miscommunication that resulted in a really cool feature.

With all patterns on the disc, you can press the left and right arrow to go previous or next pattern. We wanted this on the montage, but he came back and said that might not be possible, which confused me. What he thought we were asking for, and he was able to implement, was to jump to the previous or next montage at the same point in time. Something you can do in Java, but we don't believe has ever been done in BDMV before. So he ended up creating a marker every second. You get 999 for a disc, I think we used 600+. So either by using the pop-up menu (which you can move left or right to get out of your way) or left/right arrows, it will jump between montages at around the same point. Makes it easier to compare different versions. For DV (to or from), we jump back 2-seconds. For HDR10/10+, we jump back 1-second. The reason is the time it takes for DV to re-sync. This is for the pop-up menu. For the left/right arrow, I think we just jump back to the nearest marker. The left/right arrow was the original and so we were not sure which one we liked better or worked better.

For example, if you view the peacock feather on 4000 BT.2020. You can then quickly go to P3D65 | BT.2020 or BT.709 | BT.2020 and see the cyan de-saturated as you switch. I picked this example as this is the one that is most obvious going from 2020 to P3. For most, you won't see a difference. This was on the LG B7. Lots of examples for P3 vs. 709, especially in red. The red cactus and tulips are great examples of that. Here is the shotlist for the montage. https://www.dropbox.com/s/sdxk7k7kd3...test.xlsx?dl=0

[Kris Deering]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

If you're not seeing any banding, then you're golden. Reminds me of when the Panasonic 4K player first debuted, it didn't have a native 10-bit output (only rectified several months later with a firmware update) and so everything was upsampled to 12-bit. When the player was outputting 4K 12-bit 4:4:4 certain brands of TV like Samsung and LG were choking on the signal, throwing out posterisation all over the place.

I recall Stacey saying on the RED forum that he chose a ZD9 because it was one of the few displays at the time that actually had a proper 10-bit output thanks to its oversampled 14-bit processing, I'd like to hear what other panels he recommends for 'true' 10-bit performance.

Well based on his new test disc and patterns, I don't think it will be the ZD9 unfortunately.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by Stacey Spears

David was / is fantastic! There was a miscommunication that resulted in a really cool feature.

So we can compare the different masterings of the montage on the fly? Oh that really is so cool. If you asked David to make a disc sit up and beg for buttermilk he could probably do it.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by Kris Deering

Well based on his new test disc and patterns, I don't think it will be the ZD9 unfortunately.

Like I said, I'd like to hear about other displays (not projektors) that can do this. But he still seems to have a Zed as part of his OLED-centric setup, so....

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by PaulGo

As a retired artificial intelligence specialist I find the advancements made in AI quite significant.

More work from WP 6C since this - https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...c#post11995382

Here -
https://www.itu.int/pub/R-REP-BT.2447-2019

P.S.
In term of retirement, I am definitely not looking forward to the day I have to choose between various Medicare supplemental plans

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

1 min. listen - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vw37bDGNZSU#t=10m13s

Throwback bonus for ~ Bob : https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...s#post14525625
what instrument in the jam ^ is the HPA Tech Retreat presenter on 8K playing?

On the other coast - http://www.displaysummit.com/8k-disp...y-summit-2019/

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Stacey Spears

....skin tone is something we look at a lot.

The topic carries much importance upstream (at the capture level) also, e.g. https://vimeo.com/336098148/d23bfa2562

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Stacey Spears

Does Blu-ray.com have give away / contests? We will be providing copies to various magazines and forums to give away. If so, can someone from Blu-ray.com ping me? This way we know where to send the copies for give away.

If all else fails, you can always independently set up your own like so - https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...e#post13055524

puddy won that ^ one.

[DisplayCalNoob]

@Stacey Spears got tonal resolution from this pdf, posted by DanBa on another forum.

https://www.jonolick.com/uploads/7/9...4995790791.pdf

I assume 12 bit gradient performance is one of the reasons DV renders more visible detail in bright white material and or light sources.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Stacey Spears

we are not very sensitive to color resolution.

anyone, and why is that?
think outside the fovea, DanBa - https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...a#post13368208

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by LordoftheRings

...less than 10 minutes

2 min. listen, saves me time in posting about my experience at this year’s expo booths, except eventually when I get around to it, posting a pic of my new hat which I picked up there.
view thru to the very end to see trend noted by the blonde.
women attend CineGear too and they deserve equal pay to men in this and any other field for that matter.

What Are the Hottest Trends at CineGear 2019? - YouTube

[Stacey Spears]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Like I said, I'd like to hear about other displays (not projektors) that can do this. But he still seems to have a Zed as part of his OLED-centric setup, so....

The Z9D does really well with gradients. OLED gradients are not as nice as of today. There are so many aspects to a display and everyone has the areas of performance they care most about. e.g. If you name is Darin, then contrast ratio is all the matters. We have a drinking game, every time Darin says contrast, we take a shot.

When I was in school, I had a part time job at the LA Times as a bill collector. One day I came in and everything on my desk had a post-it note that said THX. LOL This is back in the early 90s. i was a big fan of THX back then and I guess always talked about it.

I am pretty sure that Kris Deering tried to name one of his kids JVC, but the wife veto'd it.

[Stacey Spears]

Originally Posted by DisplayCalNoob

@Stacey Spears got tonal resolution from this pdf, posted by DanBa on another forum.

https://www.jonolick.com/uploads/7/9...4995790791.pdf

I assume 12 bit gradient performance is one of the reasons DV renders more visible detail in bright white material and or light sources.

Thank you for sharing.

ST2084 is really efficient in the distribution of code values. The claim is that 12-bit PQ would be similar to 15-bit gamma in terms of tonal resolution.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by Stacey Spears

The Z9D does really well with gradients. OLED gradients are not as nice as of today. There are so many aspects to a display and everyone has the areas of performance they care most about. e.g. If you name is Darin, then contrast ratio is all the matters. We have a drinking game, every time Darin says contrast, we take a shot.

When I was in school, I had a part time job at the LA Times as a bill collector. One day I came in and everything on my desk had a post-it note that said THX. LOL This is back in the early 90s. i was a big fan of THX back then and I guess always talked about it.

I am pretty sure that Kris Deering tried to name one of his kids JVC, but the wife veto'd it.

Aye, we ALL have our favourites. I should get a Sony tattoo.

Originally Posted by Stacey Spears

Thank you for sharing.

ST2084 is really efficient in the distribution of code values. The claim is that 12-bit PQ would be similar to 15-bit gamma in terms of tonal resolution.

Indeed, from the same RED forum I mentioned earlier I recall you saying a couple of years ago that most HDR TVs at that time did their processing in a gamma space which is why so many extra bits are needed to ensure the smoothest reproduction of gradients, i.e. 10 bits of HDR don't translate into 10 bits of gamma because of how differently the code values are distributed, PQ reserving what seems like a comparatively small amount for all that lowlight/highlight information. So to process 10-bit HDR properly you need ~12 bits, to process 12-bit you need 15 and so on.

[sapiendut]

Supposedly the OLED gradient on the upcoming GZ1000 will be much improved than the current ones. But what do I know.

[LordoftheRings]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

2 min. listen, saves me time in posting about my experience at this year’s expo booths, except eventually when I get around to it, posting a pic of my new hat which I picked up there.
view thru to the very end to see trend noted by the blonde.
women attend CineGear too and they deserve equal pay to men in this and any other field for that matter.

What Are the Hottest Trends at CineGear 2019? - YouTube

Cool Penton; that's where physical is going...8K HDR own custom homemade movies.
And we need 8K HDR TVs for viewing them. ...MicroĹED.
Everything else...8K streaming by 2022. ...5G, Avatar 2 in 3D (3D HDR projektors).

* Don't have that CineGear Expo in Tijuana Mexico, you'll come back in the US empty; no gear, no new hat.