HDR Discussion Thread

[Robert Zohn]

First and foremost you owe Peter an apology. Peter is a very well informed, highly appreciated member and an expert. I also like Vincent and agree he is also an expert. In fact, Vincent gave me the most flattering complement when he copied my annual TV Shootout. Vincent does a very good job with his UK version of the event I created 14 years ago. I only wish he would have come up with his own name for my premium TV evaluation event.

Further, the problem I see with DHR+ is that we just don't need another HDR format and the bigger issue is that Sony and LG who both support HDR10, HLG and Dolby Vision HDR implemented a very smart HDR10 frame by frame dynamic system to best tone map HDR10 and without renaming anything. LG's and Sony's dynamic HDR10 works and solves the problem without getting BDA approval or anyone in the film making business to learn or adopt any new protocol and it works now.

I would rather see Samsung support HLG HDR and Dolby Vision HDR than work on an enhancement to HDR10 that was already done by LG and Sony.

[Robert Zohn]

From what I know and maybe someone will correct me, Samsung employed a look up of each frame of the SMPTE HDR10 standard and that's all they added to the existing SMPTE HDR10 protocol. So they did not "develop their own format from scratch".

Further, if my understanding is correct, this is very similar in practice to what Sony and LG have accomplished with the same static HDR10 SMPTE standard HDR.

[Geoff D]

I wish Sony's HDR solved the problem but it really doesn't. They may remap the brightness level itself to the display but actual highlight retention is rigidly governed by what picture mode you're using in conjunction with how contrast is set.

[PeterTHX]

Originally Posted by BrownianMotion

He's clueless on the issue. When his opinion differs so drastically compared to an expert like Vincent, there's really no other word, especially since he has never seen the format in action
.

Well, I truly didn't know Vincent was the "last word, end-of-all-discussion his opinion is gospel". I guess that makes me clueless then.

Does HeatEquation have an alt?

[Robert Zohn]

Oh, I understand, sorry, I got confused by your saying Dolby, it was SMPTE that has gifted the HDR10 HDR standards for free. You said Dolby and meant to say SMPTE.

[Robert Zohn]

Sorry, ^ somehow I forgot that!

[jrref]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

I wish Sony's HDR solved the problem but it really doesn't. They may remap the brightness level itself to the display but actual highlight retention is rigidly governed by what picture mode you're using in conjunction with how contrast is set.

I'm not sure if this totally answers the question but hopefully it will put things into perspective.

HDR10 metadata is a single value of MaxCLL(max luminance) and MaxFALL(average luminance) for the entire video. What Sony and LG have done is to ignore this static metadata and generate max and avg luminance values frame by frame, generating Dynamic Metadata based on the content and the individual set's capabilities, which gives you a much better rendition of HDR10 content. It's very similar to what Samsung is trying to do with HDR10+ and since LG and Sony believe that they have the best implementation, it's doubtful that they will be early adaptors or ever offer HDR10+ since they are doing it their own way today. What's tied to the picture mode is the tone mapping. LG and Sony employ different tone mapping for each picture mode and since there is no tone mapping standard, manufacturers can do what ever they want and change their tone mapping at any time. Sony has already made tone mapping changes on the A1E since it was first offered.

Everyone has their own idea of what looks best because the tone mapping algorithm's differ between manufacturers and their picture modes which is generating all of the discussion.

[Staying Salty]

Originally Posted by PeterTHX

Does HeatEquation have an alt?

https://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.p...&postcount=210

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by BrownianMotion

I'll take the word of an expert like Vincent Teoh

I remember Vincent. Back in the day, that soccer temptress journo teased me with a soccer pic into revealing before thee official announcement that Tomorrowland would be the first feature film to be released in Dolby Vision format - https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...is#post1055133

Of course, only a few astute readers like singhcr carefully followed the link with due diligence and made the connection - https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...t#post10688271

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by PeterTHX

Well, I truly didn't know Vincent was the "last word, end-of-all-discussion his opinion is gospel". I guess that makes me clueless then.

Everyone's opinion has some value.
Can someone ask Vincent to critique me with regards to something I am not a subject matter expert (SME) on….
https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...n#post12852119 but hopefully am versatile at.

Originally Posted by PeterTHX

Does HeatEquation have an alt?

What's an "alt".

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by jrref

I'm not sure if this totally answers the question but hopefully it will put things into perspective.

HDR10 metadata is a single value of MaxCLL(max luminance) and MaxFALL(average luminance) for the entire video. What Sony and LG have done is to ignore this static metadata and generate max and avg luminance values frame by frame, generating Dynamic Metadata based on the content and the individual set's capabilities, which gives you a much better rendition of HDR10 content. It's very similar to what Samsung is trying to do with HDR10+....

Although I am more of a Dolby Vision than HDR10+ proponent for specific reasons stated long ago (e.g. DV 's more elegant tone mapping algorithm - https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...4#post12007747 , 12-bit support, true frame-by-frame accuracy with no lag),

HDR10+ is planned to be more than an end device implementation be it from whatever consumer display manufacturer (Sony, LG, etc.) in that they have been working to incorporate their solution further upstream in the HDR ecosystem as a post production tool by content creators.

So in that sense (a faithful reproduction of the original creative intent which 'videophiles' seem to cherish as a top priority), HDR 10+ is more Dolby-ish than the Sony, LG, or whatever consumer display manufacturer end implementations.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Staying Salty

https://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.p...&postcount=210

Oh, I get the implication now.
Although for accuracy I recommend a spelling suggestion, it’s aneurysm.
And I suspect you’re inferring a ruptured aneurysm at that.
You two guys (Heat (or whatever 'alt' vs. Salty) back-and-forth debate is too funny.

[Caleb C.]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

What's an "alt".

Alternate account.

[Penton-Man]

Last year….

Robert Seidel, President of SMPTE at #SMPTE2016 - YouTube

This year, if peeps want to learn something more advanced (and tested) about perceived detail with static and temporal resolution (e.g. https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...d#post14118911 ) or, for instance, NHK’s signal converter for processing between HLG and PQ (by means of ITU-R BT.2100), or, color and dynamic range management as it relates to human perception (which, as an aside, can be tricky as I’ve referenced before earlier this year - http://jov.arvojournals.org/article....icleid=2609219 )
……

vis-à-vis a complementary registration without having to pay for access to such sessions,

heads-up folks, volunteer to work it -
http://mailchi.mp/hpaonline/special-events-791085 (folks may select multiple areas of interest/skill sets, even if there are time conflicts).

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Caleb C.

Alternate account.

Thanks , see post reply to Salty at top. I finally understood the term. Anyway, I miss 'ol dvdmike, does anyone know if he’s come back as an ‘alt’.?

[ray0414]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Thanks , see post reply to Salty at top. I finally understood the term. Anyway, I miss 'ol dvdmike, does anyone know if he’s come back as an ‘alt’.?

Don't know. But I know he's very active on Twitter. His Twitter handle I believe is the same as here (Dvdmike)

[ray0414]

I wish Samsung would concentrate on making a quality TV instead of creating a new format that none of their tvs can properly display.

(I actually heard some detailed rumors privately that Samsung next year will get back on track)

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Thanks , see post reply to Salty at top. I finally understood the term. Anyway, I miss 'ol dvdmike, does anyone know if he’s come back as an ‘alt’.?

The answer should be quite obvious if you look in most of the recent threads in the 4K movies forum...

[jrref]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Although I am more of a Dolby Vision than HDR10+ proponent for specific reasons stated long ago (e.g. DV 's more elegant tone mapping algorithm - https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...4#post12007747 , 12-bit support, true frame-by-frame accuracy with no lag),

HDR10+ is planned to be more than an end device implementation be it from whatever consumer display manufacturer (Sony, LG, etc.) in that they have been working to incorporate their solution further upstream in the HDR ecosystem as a post production tool by content creators.

So in that sense (a faithful reproduction of the original creative intent which 'videophiles' seem to cherish as a top priority), HDR 10+ is more Dolby-ish than the Sony, LG, or whatever consumer display manufacturer end implementations.

>>>
So in that sense (a faithful reproduction of the original creative intent which 'videophiles' seem to cherish as a top priority), HDR 10+ is more Dolby-ish than the Sony, LG, or whatever consumer display manufacturer end implementations.
<<<

Maybe yes, maybe no. Why? because with HDR10+, content creators will have tools to initially set parameters for the video BUT they will not be going frame by frame, manually with tools, creating the metadata lol. That will still be automated. It will be interesting to see how close Sony's dynamic metadata HDR10 is to Dolby Vision once it's available because right now Sony is doing "super bit mapping" so we will see.

[RockyIII]

I'm still trying to grasp if this thread should be reason for 4K LG and Sony owners to be excited about the near future or not

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