HDR Discussion Thread

[Geoff D]

Proof or GTFO

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Staying Salty

Interesting (if it’s on the web, it has to be true)

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/465-hi...l#post54097481

He’s from the L.A. area, eh?
Apparently he’s smoking better stuff than some of my neighbors.

[Penton-Man]

checking PMs now……

[Penton-Man]

Follow-up to a post from 3-24-2017, root cause has now been determined by Samsung investigators to be #3 -
https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...n#post13391756

[Penton-Man]

^
Quoting - “The result of the investigation into the lower peak brightness found on the 55Q7 sample by Rtings.com is: Damage to the sample in shipping resulted in a lowered peak brightness. The damage effected the performance of the light guide plate, and this lowered peak brightness by 33%.....”

[Penton-Man]

A worthwhile session for those attending IBC2017……
https://show.ibc.org/ibc-big-screen-...743.1494877327

[PaulGo]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

^
Quoting - “The result of the investigation into the lower peak brightness found on the 55Q7 sample by Rtings.com is: Damage to the sample in shipping resulted in a lowered peak brightness. The damage effected the performance of the light guide plate, and this lowered peak brightness by 33%.....”

This doesn't sound right. If two samples were damaged by shipping it would seem the manufacturing process or design was initially faulty. Samsung then fixed the problem so the new sample would perform to specifications. If I was an early purchaser of this set I would be concerned it had the same flaw which could degrade performance.

[PaulGo]

Samsung Q7F QLED Brightness Issue & Fix - YouTube

[Optimus]

So should the back light be left at maxed out? To me it's too bright so I turned it down to about 45, I have an LG 49UJ654T. The blacks look too washed out plus I have light bleed on the top left which is a little annoying.

[DanBa]

. HDMI 1.4:
"Roland Vlaicu, Dolby VP:
We had anticipated the challenge of getting high dynamic range (HDR) and HDR metadata over HDMI interfaces. So what we did was develop our own technology that tunnels all the way through HDMI interfaces back to version 1.4, including the signaling and the metadata. So for televisions that have HDMI inputs and present Dolby Vision signals, as a requirement from us, the HDMI inputs have to support Dolby Vision in addition to the on-board OTT apps that support Dolby Vision and in order to make that work we developed in-band signaling as well as the ability to send 12-bit video over what is effectively an 8-bit interface. All this is implemented in televisions and storage devices that support Dolby Vision.”
https://hdguru.com/dolby-vision-trie...t-bar-for-hdr/

Dolby Vision receiver pass-through compatibility: pass-through Dolby Vision video signal with embedded Dolby Vision metadata
"Dolby Vision can technically be routed through any equipment starting at v1.4.b and above, however, the device needs to be aware of the kind of signal properties that differentiate Dolby Vision from a standard SDR signal. To this effect, we have issued a compatibility SDK that several manufacturers have already used to obtain pass-through compatibility on upcoming products. Compatibility on existing products is something that could possibly achieved as well, but is of course at the discretion of each manufacturer/OEM."
https://www.soundandvision.com/conte...fJDvzbr4VHV.99


. HDMI 2.0a:
HDR10 Media Profile:
"A TV, monitor or projector may be referred to as a HDR Compatible Display if it meets the following minimum attributes:
. Includes at least one interface that supports HDR signaling as defined in CEA-861-F, as extended by CEA-861.3.
. Receives and processes static HDR metadata compliant with CEA-861.3 for uncompressed video."
https://www.cta.tech/News/Press-Rele...-Displays.aspx

HDMI:
"We support HDR static metadata that is referenced in CTA 861.3. As the industry and features/formats develop, we will certainly evaluate supporting additional formats.
There is additional metadata is that required to deliver the enhancements offered by HDR. HDMI 2.0a adds the ability for devices to be able to transmit/receive this metadata."
http://www.hdmi.org/manufacturer/hdm...a_faq.aspx#148


. HDMI 2.0b:
"The HDMI Forum has confirmed that the extension of the static metadata signaling to include HLG can be utilized under the existing HDMI 2.0b Specification."
http://www.hdmi.org/manufacturer/hdmi_2_0/


. HDMI 2.1: not yet published for the time being
HDMI Specification 2.1 Feature Highlights include Dynamic HDR, Higher Video Resolutions (4K120Hz, 8K60Hz), eARC, Game Mode VRR (Variable Refresh Rate) and 48G cables / 48Gbps bandwidth.
http://www.hdmi.org/manufacturer/hdmi_2_1/
https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...8#post13336708
https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...2#post13336742

HDR10 Plus compliant streaming media player:
HDR10 Plus content >> IP network >> HDR10 Plus compliant media player > 10-bit PQ uncompressed video + ST 2086 static metadata + ST 2094-40 dynamic metadata >> HDMI 2.1 >> HDR10 Plus compliant TV

Probable future ST 2094-10 compliant ATSC 3.0:
"This document describes technology documented in ST 2094-10 “Dynamic Metadata for Color Volume Transform — Application #1” which is a technology for the use of dynamic metadata for HDR content. If approved by the ATSC, A/341-Video-HECV (date of current public version) (“A/341”) would be amended according to the edits described herein.
The HEVC video bitstream may contain the 2094-10 metadata message in order to provide dynamic information about the video signal. When a 2094-10 metadata message is present, this information can be employed by the display to adapt the delivered HDR imagery to the capability of the display device. Furthermore, this metadata can be used to derive an SDR (ITUR BT.709 [ref]) picture by receiving devices such as an ATSC 3.0 receiver/converter."
https://www.atsc.org/wp-content/uplo...nt-2094-10.pdf
ATSC 3.0 content >> ATSC 3.0 network >> ATSC 3.0 STB (Set Top Box) > 12-bit PQ uncompressed video + ST 2086 static metadata + ST 2094-10 dynamic metadata >> HDMI 2.1 >> ST 2094-10 Dolby Vision compliant TV

Probable future HDR10 Plus compliant Ultra HD Blu-ray:
https://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.p...postcount=2068
HDR10 Plus disc > HDR10 Plus compliant UHD Blu-ray player > 10-bit PQ uncompressed video + ST 2086 static metadata + ST 2094-40 dynamic metadata >> HDMI 2.1 >> HDR10 Plus compliant TV

A TV with eARC feature or game mode VRR feature or 4K120 HFR (High Frame Rate) feature shall be compatible with HDMI 2.1:
4K120 HFR content >> IP network >> 4K120 STB (Set Top Box) >> HDMI 2.1 >> 4K120 HFR TV


. VP9-PQ YouTube HDR / HDR10: same CTA HDR10 uncompressed video over HDMI 2.0a
VP9-PQ YouTube HDR content >> IP network >> VP9-PQ YouTube HDR compliant media player > 10-bit PQ uncompressed video + "ST 2086 static metadata" >> HDMI 2.0a >> VP9-PQ YouTube HDR / HDR10 compliant TV

HDR10 content >> IP network >> HDR10 compliant media player > 10-bit PQ uncompressed video + "ST 2086 static metadata" >> HDMI 2.0a >> VP9-PQ YouTube HDR / HDR10 compliant TV


. VP9-HLG YouTube HDR / HEVC HLG HDR: same HLG uncompressed video over HDMI 2.0b
VP9-HLG YouTube HDR content >> IP network >> VP9-HLG YouTube HDR compliant media player > 10-bit HLG uncompressed video >> HDMI 2.0b >> VP9-HLG YouTube HDR / HEVC HLG HDR compliant TV

HEVC HLG HDR content >> IP network >> HEVC HLG HDR compliant media player > 10-bit HLG uncompressed video >> HDMI 2.0b >> VP9-HLG YouTube HDR / HEVC HLG HDR compliant TV


. Technicolor HDR:
"Advanced HDR [i.e. SDR-to-HDR upconversion + Technicolor HDR] is a universal distribution system supporting all formats of HDR."
https://twitter.com/Technicolor/stat...35919490146304
https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...2#post13336742

[mrtickleuk]

Originally Posted by disrember

all eyes are on the BBC coverage of Wimbledon. Last year the finals had a UHD satellite feed, but as there were no domestic receivers available then, only BBC engineers could watch the channel.

http://advanced-television.com/2016/...transmissions/

This year most people have sky Q, which is already receiving the occasional UHD sports transmission. If the BBC do broadcast the Wimbledon matches, I am guessing it will not have its own dedicated channel as the article mentions but will follow the same principal of sky, which is on screen button to switch to the UHD feed (or red button).

http://www.a516digital.com/2017/06/b...reams-for.html

I don't agree with "most people have sky Q" at all! It's much too expensive, and the EPG UI is still effectively in Beta (recordings are buried even deeper down the menus than before, for example). Also sky Q doesn't support any form of HDR. Even just to get 4K, you have to pay for a "multiroom" subscription - that's the same crime, and just as bad, as Netflix only offering 4K to multi-stream customers. F*** anyone who lives alone or watches their TV in one room. They can just subsidise everyone else. Great.

It's a system that's been launched much too early. When the next generation hardware supports HDR, and it doesn't have a stupid remote, and when they sort the software out, it might have more appeal.

Could this also be a live demo of HLG.

I am also assuming that as the match conclude the less the extra feeds will be needed and can used for a UHD stream?

Haven't heard any mention of it at all . I would hope they are doing private HLG trials though.

[blurayjunkie]

I hope someone can answer this question, I also hope it's not too silly. Will using the built in HDR mode on my TV make a noticeable enough difference, for non HDR content? The model of my TV is in my signature.

[Staying Salty]

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/465-hi...10-summit.html

A bit more detail on dynamic metadata. Some purrrtie graphs for you technical types.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by Staying Salty

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/465-hi...10-summit.html

A bit more detail on dynamic metadata. Some purrrtie graphs for you technical types.

Those are the same simple graphs from a prior SMPTE presentation on dynamic metadata which was also chaired by a Samsung bod. And, as I said then, those graphs are using 500 nits as their reference so while better mapping is indeed VITAL for low nit displays to render HDR properly it still doesn't address - as you yourself asked in that thread - the kind of difference that dynamic will make on a high nit display with good mapping, say 1500+ nits' worth. It will make a difference, especially to a pixel peeper like me, but is it the kind of difference that necessarily deserves all the PR waffle?

And something about the Samsung version that I'm not clear on is how the metadata itself is interpreted. DV works not JUST through the magic metadata but by creating a bespoke profile for each DV display to which the information is then mapped to, so if Samsung don't have that kind of contextual processing then what good is dynamic metadata if the TV will just interpret it how it wants anyway?

[mrtickleuk]

Originally Posted by blurayjunkie

I hope someone can answer this question, I also hope it's not too silly. Will using the built in HDR mode on my TV make a noticeable enough difference, for non HDR content?

It is a little bit silly, sorry . Imagine a few decades ago someone buying a colour TV and asking "will this make a difference for my black and white content?" - it's a very similar question. There are two options:
1. Display properly in black and white (the only option with the technology at the time).
2. Try to "colourise" the black and white content. Like they did with some Laurel and Hardy films. The results are bad, and it is "video vandalism".

Option 2 in the modern HDR world is available on some/most TVs to make the SDR content look like "fake" HDR. Whether you choose to do this is up to you. Like all forms of video processing, opinions vary. But it's super important to remember that you are asking the TV to create HDR brightness information and colour information which was not in the original signal.

HTH

[HeatEquation]

As expected, dynamic metadata does not make much of a difference on high nit LCD TVs, as the author states at the end of this article: http://www.avsforum.com/hdr10-samsung-qledhdr10-summit/

Shouldn't be a shocking revelation, as even the vast majority of OLED owners (where you'd expect to see the biggest difference) don't see much of a difference with DV content.

HDR10+, much like DV, will be just another very subtle improvement.

[HeatEquation]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

And something about the Samsung version that I'm not clear on is how the metadata itself is interpreted. DV works not JUST through the magic metadata but by creating a bespoke profile for each DV display to which the information is then mapped to, so if Samsung don't have that kind of contextual processing then what good is dynamic metadata if the TV will just interpret it how it wants anyway?

Isn't that what this addresses?

This standard specifies the metadata for Color Volume Transform Application #4, Scene-based Color Volume Mapping. It is a specialization of the content-dependent transform metadata entries and processing blocks of the generalized color volume transform model defined in the SMPTE ST 2094-1 Core Components standard.

Scene-based Color Volume Mapping consists of scene-based tone mapping and scene-based color saturation mapping processing blocks. These processing blocks make use of the peak luminance behaviors of the display used for mastering the image essence (i.e. the "mastering display") and the targeted system display as their ability to achieve peak luminance varies with the average brightness level of the pixels and the number of bright pixels within the scene. In addition to these adjustments that can be algorithmically determined from known display and content characteristics, Scene-based Color Volume Mapping also allows creatively approved adjustments.

http://www.techstreet.com/standards/...uct_id=1927906

[Staying Salty]

Originally Posted by HeatEquation

As expected, dynamic metadata does not make much of a difference on high nit LCD TVs, as the author states at the end of this article: http://www.avsforum.com/hdr10-samsung-qledhdr10-summit/

“In the demo area, Samsung was playing content in HDR10+ on one screen and the same content in HDR10 on the other, as seen in the photo at the top of this article. I didn’t see much difference between the two, but most of the content was fairly bright. I wish the content had a greater range of bright and dark scenes, which would have illustrated the advantages of HDR10+ more dramatically.”

Seems to me he’s implying that dynamic metadata can show a more dramatic difference. The pictures he uses to illustrate the article certainly support a dramatic difference to my eyes.

Originally Posted by HeatEquation

Shouldn't be a shocking revelation, as even the vast majority of OLED owners (where you'd expect to see the biggest difference) don't see much of a difference with DV content.

The vast majority of the reviews on AVS Forum see a big difference.

Originally Posted by HeatEquation

HDR10+, much like DV, will be just another very subtle improvement.

Originally Posted by HeatEquation

Just realized this means that X-Men: Dark Phoenix, Deadpool 2, Alien: Awakening, the next Predator movie, and Avatar 2 could very well get HDR10+ treatment.

You sure are excited about subtle.

Originally Posted by HeatEquation

HDR10+, much like DV, will be just another very subtle improvement.

A whole lot of companies are spending a whole lot of money on “subtle”.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by Staying Salty

“In the demo area, Samsung was playing content in HDR10+ on one screen and the same content in HDR10 on the other, as seen in the photo at the top of this article. I didn’t see much difference between the two, but most of the content was fairly bright. I wish the content had a greater range of bright and dark scenes, which would have illustrated the advantages of HDR10+ more dramatically.”

Seems to me he’s implying that dynamic metadata can show a more dramatic difference. The pictures he uses to illustrate the article certainly support a dramatic difference to my eyes.

What he's saying is that the point of dynamic metadata is there to properly adjust the APL in lower light scenes just as much as it's there to preserve detail in brighter scenes, which is what the Samsung demo footage mostly contained. Mostly.

[HeatEquation]

Originally Posted by Staying Salty

“In the demo area, Samsung was playing content in HDR10+ on one screen and the same content in HDR10 on the other, as seen in the photo at the top of this article. I didn’t see much difference between the two, but most of the content was fairly bright. I wish the content had a greater range of bright and dark scenes, which would have illustrated the advantages of HDR10+ more dramatically.”

Seems to me he’s implying that dynamic metadata can show a more dramatic difference. The pictures he uses to illustrate the article certainly support a dramatic difference to my eyes.



The vast majority of the reviews on AVS Forum see a big difference.





You sure are excited about subtle.



A whole lot of companies are spending a whole lot of money on “subtle”.

He said he thinks it could show a bigger difference in darker scenes. It remains to be seen just how big.

The vast majority of AVS members have actually stated that the difference between DV and HDR10 is very subtle.

My post about those movies coming out in HDR10+ was just meant to poke the DV fanatics. But in reality, I don't expect them to look significantly better in HDR10+ than they will in HDR10. My TV will be getting the firmware update within the next few months, so I'll be able to compare HDR10 vs HDR10+.