HDR Discussion Thread

[PeterTHX]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

but just look at how blown out to shit the highlights are in most of those mid-90s to early-'00s HD transfers

Which ones though?
A lot of films of that era had the look, just as the late aughts movies all seemed to have that stupid teal & gold color grading that we're now just leaving behind.

It definitely IS an issue at the mastering end, especially with reference to most optical shots which really should be printed down with a much higher gamma e.g. the garbage mattes in the Star Warses

Everyone had moved on to digital compositing by the early to mid '90s.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by PeterTHX

Which ones though?
A lot of films of that era had the look, just as the late aughts movies all seemed to have that stupid teal & gold color grading that we're now just leaving behind.

Whaddaya mean which ones? I'm not gonna go through an itemised list, it's just there on many transfers from that era. Just because it was a common look doesn't discount the methods it took to get there...which was blowing the contrast out to shit for more 'pop'.

Everyone had moved on to digital compositing by the early to mid '90s.

Again: what? I'm talking about old transfers of film to video, not movie making techniques in and of themselves. I mentioned garbage mattes because they look like crap on something that's been mastered to video with the wrong gamma, i.e. you can make something in the '70s or '80s and then have it transferred (badly) in the '90s or '00s, you dig?

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by gkolb

Sony source

Webinar | Sony delivers HDR - YouTube

[Penton-Man]

^ or, above the level of rank and file (who are not enormous and didn’t sport a beard), from back in the day, former Presidents , e.g. (I’ve redacted my email addy to protect anonymity)

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Kris Deering

I've been around, just haven't been posting in here much. Definitely a discussion for Darin, who is still in the trenches trying to fight the contrast naysayers. He was just over this last week.....

Do you still hang with Stacey? I’m wondering if/when his next calibration disc will debut and if he could include a high (e.g. 100) Mbps data rate encode as sample content on his disc to compare to a streaming service Mbps data rate (12-20) encode sample in order to show the value of triple layer Ultra HD Blu-ray discs as opposed to streaming service delivery in terms of visual quality.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

But w/ref to Kris' comment I've also heard that gamma is all over the place when it comes to mastering and that in itself is almost like a proto-HDR 'flying blind' kinda deal in relation to how the display should best handle x content. How ever did we survive?

I think it is rather hypocritical that many of the Dolby Vision fanboys I notice incessantly posting online now (whom I think actually do more harm than good to DV and HDR in general because of their fanaticism and hyperbole) didn’t (Kris excluded, who I remember did as a videophile) raise any stink about this gamma conundrum in delivery presentation of movies to the home just a few years ago.

[Stacey Spears]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Do you still hang with Stacey? I’m wondering if/when his next calibration disc will debut and if he could include a high (e.g. 100) Mbps data rate encode as sample content on his disc to compare to a streaming service Mbps data rate (12-20) encode sample in order to show the value of triple layer Ultra HD Blu-ray discs as opposed to streaming service delivery in terms of visual quality.

I have built a list of all montage variations I would like to include and it ended up being around 220 versions of the montage. Here is the master list in Excel.

I will probably cut it down to around 60 versions.

I am planning two triple layer discs.
1 x UHD SDR
1 x UHD HDR10/Dolby Vision

If you look at my list, you will see 100+ Mbps and 15 Mbps for an OTT style to cover your specific scenario.

I want to cover:
HD, UHD, 709, 2020, SDR 100, HDR 4000, 2000, 1000, 540 and 100 (Projection) I want to include both Dolby and ColorFront tone/gamut mapping. This way you can compare what your display does to what Dolby and ColorFront do, which should be better.

I had the idea of also taking the 100 nit SDR and using ColorFront to make 200 and 300 nit SDR. Then 200 and 300 nit HDR from the 4000 nit HDR. The idea is 200 nit for OLED and 300 nit for LCD. This may get cut.

All of the montage footage is being shot on the Red VistaVision sensor at 7680x4320 and then we are using a new perceptual based down scaler with a nice anti-ringing filter. All of the VistaVision footage on this site is from my camera and I can use it in the montage. I have been trading favors with several film makers. I am letting them use the camera in exchange for some footage to use in the montage.

I recently shot some tulips and I could not believe how saturated they were. I plotted them on a 1931 CIE diagram in both 709 and 2020.

709


2020


One of the variations (around five of them) will be done in a heads up display or HUD. Here is a crude mock-up. This was copy and pasted so I could work on the layout. The Perceptual Color Volume is ICtCp. The mock-up has the outer shell at 4000 nit P3. The real version will use 10,000 nit 2020. I will also use the actual color of the pixels vs. white in the mock-up. The histogram is using additive color, but I am not sure I like that for the WFM. I may use luma only on the WFM. Thoughts? I want the WFM to line up width wise with the source image. Makes it easier t view. It is slightly off in the mock-up.


The scale will be 4-1019 (Histogram and WFM) for SDR and 0-10,000 nits for HDR. The color volume will actually rotate continuously to make it easier to understand. I also plan to swap the 2D and 3D views on the bottom. I want gamut on the left and color volume on the right.

One version will actually start in SDR and then pause so you can see one full rotation of the color volume. Then it will cross-fade into HDR. This will allow you to see the color volume actually grow inside of the shell. Then the video will continue.

The goal is to have at least a beta of the disc by 3/2018 to demo to the press.

I am going to Yellowstone to shoot the Grand Prismatic Spring for some nice cyan color to go along with the red tulips I shot above. The yellow tulip, in that sea of red, ends up going white in the SDR version and is a beautiful yellow in the HDR version.

Nanosys was kind enough to make me some Quantum Dot to shoot for the montage. We are trying several different ideas to light them in the montage. Here was a quick test with them on vs. off. By on, I mean shining a UV light on them to make them glow.

Off


On


I am hiring Light Iron (Ian Vertovec) to do the SDR grade of the montage. Then the SDR grade and the ACES files will go to Dolby to do the HDR grade. Dolby can look at the SDR, but they can't touch it. We don't want anyone to accuse us of making SDR look bad so HDR looks good.

If anyone has specific SDR or HDR content they want on the disc or a version of the montage, not listed, please post it here or PM me.

I am cutting the 59.94 montage for now. I may add a 709 and 2020 HLG just to include it. Again, I may drop the 200, 300 SDR/HDR clips. Also one OTT instead of the OTT-N and OTT-A. I think a 15 Mbps and a 20 Mbps might be good enough. Or just a 15 Mbps.

[Geoff D]

I'm counting down the days until the UHD HDR disc is released. You still rocking that ZD9?

[Stacey Spears]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Since you brought up the reference again, I beg to differ, unless in the interim, the author has made corrections.

I actually prefer this article on HDR, but then I am biased. Color Volume is the next article in that series.

[Stacey Spears]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

I'm counting down the days until the UHD HDR disc is released. You still rocking that ZD9?

I have a Z9D for LCD and an OLED on the way. I will use both for pattern development. Then the montage is being graded on the X300 and Pulsar in the wider than P3 mode.

[puddy77]

The Verge posted a video interviewing Poppy Crum about her physiological studies of people watching HDR:

https://youtu.be/qYTT-0A8QIE

An interesting tidbit is when she mentions Pixar wanted the diffuse white screen when Riley was born in Inside Out to cause physiological pain.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Stacey Spears

I have built a list of all montage variations I would like to include and it ended up being around 220 versions of the montage. Here is the master list in Excel.

I will probably cut it down to around 60 versions.

I am planning two triple layer discs.
1 x UHD SDR
1 x UHD HDR10/Dolby Vision

If you look at my list, you will see 100+ Mbps and 15 Mbps for an OTT style to cover your specific scenario.

I want to cover:

Happy to see you chime in Stacey. Very impressive project.

The work certainly has come a long way since this comparatively humble offering to consumers back in the day of Blu-ray….https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...de#post1432708

---> https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...ls#post4453123

(for the record, although I believe uncredited at the time, the name of the model in that old test signal sequence is Kristen )

Random thoughts:

- if you enjoy capturing the flowers and are in my neck of the woods sometime for work or play, try - http://www.theflowerfields.com/
just down the 5 in Carlsbad.

- good to see the inclusion of ColorFront. A couple companies enjoy using variants of the phrase ‘intelligent tone mapping’ in describing their products' strengths and if folks think that Dolby Vision is the most ‘intelligent’ of the bunch, I think ColorFront is the Salutatorian of the class. Also, for those unfamiliar/unaware they’re becoming more and more adopted in onset dallies (Spider-Man Homecoming , etc.)…..
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/color...153600005.html

if you’re in town right now and need a break, this event tomorrow might spark your interest….http://www.sportsvideo.org/event/201...imaging-forum/

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by puddy77

The Verge posted a video interviewing Poppy Crum about her physiological studies of people watching HDR: https://youtu.be/qYTT-0A8QIE

Poppy also serves on this Working Party –

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

the respective ITU Working Party (http://www.itu.int/en/ITU-R/study-gr...s/default.aspx)

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by puddy77

....An interesting tidbit is when she mentions Pixar wanted the diffuse white screen when Riley was born in Inside Out to cause physiological pain.

Blame Dominic.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

if you’re in town right now and need a break, this event tomorrow might spark your interest….http://www.sportsvideo.org/event/201...imaging-forum/

As I enjoy/respect real world (sports) acquisition
https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...y#post13632805

in addition to narrative content (movie offerings). And in a few more years we’ll be talking about HFR+HDR delivery as much as we’re talking about HDR delivery now because the image improvement is continuous with HFR and sports sells a lot of TVs.

[Staying Salty]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

- good to see the inclusion of ColorFront. A couple companies enjoy using variants of the phrase ‘intelligent tone mapping’ in describing their products' strengths and if folks think that Dolby Vision is the most ‘intelligent’ of the bunch, I think ColorFront is the Salutatorian of the class....

http://www.avsforum.com/colorfront-t...dhdr10-summit/

“The system is GPU-based software running on Supermicro, HP Z840, and Macintosh Pro computers. It features an ACES-compliant pipeline with input transforms for camera-specific live signals and recorded footage as well as output transforms for projectors and flat panels in SDR and HDR. Speaking of which, it can handle HDR10, HDR10+, Dolby Vision, and HLG as well as SDR. It consolidates all types of color spaces and formats onto a common platform, simplifying them into a single workflow.

The Colorfront Engine—the basis for Transkoder—is based on human perception. Image analysis determines the mix of perceptual weighting and a simple rolloff at the high end of the brightness range while leaving the low end alone. As a result, perceived relationships of color and brightness remain constant across different dynamic ranges, brightnesses, and color gamuts. The goal is to preserve the original creative intent no matter what the final delivery format is.”

As usual, I cannot tell if this is a big deaL or not. Will this be a step forward in the delivery of HDR content, particularly disks?

[DanBa]

"The latest firmware update for LG’s 2016 OLED models C6 and E6 adds support for the HLG format, which will be used to broadcast HDR quality via TV channels.

The changelog lists the C6 and E6 OLED models as applicable models. There is no mention of the more affordable B6, which uses a non-LG system chip from Realtek. It will require a separate firmware update but the plans are unclear."
http://www.flatpanelshd.com/news.php...&id=1500441850

Apparently, the C6 / E6 OLED models are supporting HDR10, Dolby Vision and HEVC HLG HDR.







"HLG on YouTube works on the G6 OLED after the update."

Apparently, the G6 OLED models are supporting HDR10, Dolby Vision, HEVC HLG HDR, VP9-HLG YouTube HDR and VP9-PQ YouTube HDR (i.e. all operational HDR formats for the time being).

YouTube HDR requires 10-bit VP9 decoding.

[DanBa]

Originally Posted by Stacey Spears

... Dolby and ColorFront tone/gamut mapping...

"Dolby tone/gamut mapping."
What does it mean?

Does it mean Intelligent Display Mapping Engine’s algorithm (i.e. Dolby Vision Display Mapped Playback’s algorithm) + Dolby Vision dynamic metadata?
In other words, the Dolby Vision dynamic metadata specification can’t itself describe all the features of the (reference) Dolby tone/gamut mapping.



"Let me do a bit of an overview:
HDR10 = 10-bit HEVC + SMPTE 2084 + SMPTE 2086
Dolby Vision = 12-Bit Video + SMPTE 2084 + SMPTE 2086 + Dynamic Meta Data (SMPTE 2094) + Intelligent Display Mapping Engine
The dynamic capabilities and real time display mapping is what makes Dolby Vision higher quality (also the wider color gamut and higher dynamic range in the spec)."
[CTO of Vizio]
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/166-lc...l#post43311322

Thanks

[Geoff D]

Gotta love the CTO of Vizio not understanding that HDR10 and DV share the exact same BT.2020 and 10,000-nit container as a fundamental part of the ST 2084 EOTF, but then HDD came out with the same nonsense so I guess it's catching.

Anyhoo, yes, DV's special sauce would be useless if every display just applied it willy nilly, so every DV display type needs its own 'golden reference' profile (usually averaged from several test models) loaded into the Dolby processing engine.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

I notice this morning we cracked the 300,000 viewership mark.
Chapeau to all the contributors - https://forum.blu-ray.com/misc.php?d...osted&t=276605
and the silent readers.

2themax, feel free also to join in more on any topic.