HDR Discussion Thread

[Penton-Man]

Member asks:
He doesn’t know - http://www.avsforum.com/forum/23-scr...l#post55052340

Penton, do you know and can you share?
Ans. – Yes, word is $700,000 for the screen.

Reminds me, an aside to Blu-ray.com membership traveling to and/or living in Japan. InterBee often has good stuff - http://www.inter-bee.com/en/ so, if you’re in town it’s worth a visit. Even SpectraCal/Portrait Displays

Martin Fishman of Portrait Displays #SMPTE2017 @smpteconnect - YouTube

is a planned exhibitor and should be offering insights wrt HDR calibration.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by DanBa

I am not an expert, but as far as I understand

You're doing o.k.

[DanBa]

Originally Posted by Lineproduct

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/465-hi...l#post55051930

Ultra HD Blu-ray white paper:
http://www.blu-raydisc.com/Assets/Do...0729_clean.pdf

"BDMV HDR [aka "HDR10"] video stream is an HEVC video stream (10bit, YCbCr 4:2:0).

The [dual layer] Dolby Vision video stream is composed of a BDMV HDR video stream and a Dolby Vision enhancement layer video stream. The enhancement layer is an HEVC video stream with embedded Dolby Vision metadata.

The Philips HDR video stream is a BDMV HDR video stream with Philips HDR SEI messages."


If HDR10+ is added into the BDA specification, it could be as follows:
The HDR10+ video stream is a BDMV HDR video stream with Samsung HDR SEI messages (i.e. "ST 2094-40 dynamic metadata for color volume transform").
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/465-hi...-displays.html

If the single layer Dolby Vision, like the Dolby Vision currently used by Apple, is added into the BDA specification, it could be as follows:
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/465-hi...l#post55030904
The single layer Dolby Vision video stream is a BDMV HDR video stream with Dolby HDR SEI messages (i.e. "ST 2094-10 dynamic metadata").


It makes no sense that HDR10+ can replace BDMV HDR (aka "HDR10") and become a mandatory base layer: the others HDR formats have their own specific metadata, the Samsung metadata have no use for their own specific color volume mapping / display adaptation / tone-gamut mapping,

i.e.

the video stream of other HDR formats and HDR10+ is always a BDMV HDR video stream with specific HEVC SEI messages or specific metadata for specific color volume mapping.

BDMV HDR (aka "HDR10") is and will remain the mandatory base layer for Ultra HD Blu-ray.

[ray0414]

As far as I've read and also common sense, says you can't have 2 different sets of dynamic Metadata on 1 disc. Hard enough getting 1 layer of dynamic Metadata alone. That would be like putting atmos and dtsX on the same disc.

[HeatEquation]

I get that people here don't comprehend the logistics of it yet, but this is coming from a trusted insider with sources across several manufacturers and other people within the industry. There's a reason why 2themax didn't dismiss the idea, even though he may not have heard anything about it yet.

Let's also not forget that article a while back where Warner Bros was saying that they were interested in supporting HDR10+ and that it would be technically possible to have HDR10+ and DV on the same discs.

However, this clear commitment does not mean that the studio will reject the competition format HDR10 + supported by the TV manufacturers Samsung, Panasonic and, in the future, Philips . The statement here was analogously: If with Dolby Vision and HDR10 + in each case only a part of the customers can be reached (and then it looks like currently), then you just have to think about offering titles in both formats.

The interlocutors were also confident that it would be technically possible, in addition to the static HDR format HDR10 synonymous to accommodate the metadata of the two dynamic methods Dolby Vision and HDR10 + on an Ultra HD Blu-ray. Currently, the responsible Blu-ray Disc Association has not even specified HDR10 + for use on the 4K disc.

https://www.heise.de/newsticker/meld...t-3820712.html

[Staying Salty]

Originally Posted by DanBa

ICtCp is patented by Dolby.
https://www.google.com/patents/WO2017024042A2?cl=en

Does this mean that if a content creator wanted to use a HDR format other than Dolby Vision, they would have to pay a royalty to Dolby or would the hardware (encoders/decoders) do it?

[ray0414]

Originally Posted by HeatEquation

I get that people here don't comprehend the logistics of it yet, but this is coming from a trusted insider with sources across several manufacturers and other people within the industry. There's a reason why 2themax didn't dismiss the idea, even though he may not have heard anything about it yet.

Let's also not forget that article a while back where Warner Bros was saying that they were interested in supporting HDR10+ and that it would be technically possible to have HDR10+ and DV on the same discs.



https://www.heise.de/newsticker/meld...t-3820712.html

I believe it was this thread or another but it was posted recently that those in charge are not as optimistic that 2 different sets of dynamic Metadata can be on a disc anymore . So your 2 month old article may not mean squat.

[mrtickleuk]

Keeping this really simple, to ask a "dumb" question . Ignoring the extra two bits of picture data for the dolby format.

My understanding is that the metadata is just a (relatively small) stream of data describing the MaxFALL/MaxCLL/etc is it not? It might only change for a few scenes in a movie. Its purpose is only to help low-nit displays do their tone mapping in some "challenging" scenes. In the future when every display can do 4000 nits (for example, whatever the mastering maximum is), metadata will be completely redundant anyway, will it not?

If that is the case, I don't see - in principle - how one set of metadata would have any impact at all on the other set of metadata. Surely the display will know to only look at one. Were aren't expecting the display to "merge" two sets of metadata, are we? So what's the problem having more than one on the same disc? We've already got two sets of metadata as it is, and they don't affect each other. What big explosion is going to happen just because they are both "dynamic"?

[Geoff D]

IMO it's more the added complexity that's the issue, it's not impossible on paper but wrangling three sets of metadata (1x static, 2x dynamic) atop the already tricky encoding for the base layer + 1:1/4 DV enhancement layer is a mastering headache that they don't need.

It's best that HDR10+ simply becomes another optional dynamic format IMO, and it's no coincidence that the user experience of current HDR10 titles is starting to even out a little as static tone mapping is improved upon (often with in-house "active" processing) and more people are getting into 4K with a TV that's not some bottom-rung supermarket special. I don't mean to disparage anyone's TV choices with that remark but static HDR really does demand a certain baseline of performance in the display to be able to assess it with any real certainty.

Point being: Those performance baselines are increasingly being met by 4K consumers and with the improvements to tone mapping that are being done year on year then the perception of HDR10 is also improving with it. I'm not saying there's no need for dynamic in this current environment (although it is indeed correct to assume that less mapping is needed the nearer a source gets to the mastering intent, that comes from Dolby themselves) but I just don't think it requires putting three different formats on one disc.

[DanBa]

Originally Posted by Staying Salty

Does this mean that if a content creator wanted to use a HDR format other than Dolby Vision, they would have to pay a royalty to Dolby or would the hardware (encoders/decoders) do it?

Sorry, I can't find the ICtCp licensing rights.

[HeatEquation]

Originally Posted by ray0414

I believe it was this thread or another but it was posted recently that those in charge are not as optimistic that 2 different sets of dynamic Metadata can be on a disc anymore . So your 2 month old article may not mean squat.

Who in charge was saying that?

Anyways, now we've got brand new information from a trusted insider that HDR10+ could very well become the base layer.

[HeatEquation]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

IMO it's more the added complexity that's the issue, it's not impossible on paper but wrangling three sets of metadata (1x static, 2x dynamic) atop the already tricky encoding for the base layer + 1:1/4 DV enhancement layer is a mastering headache that they don't need.

Maybe true, but let's face it, how many discs would this actually affect? It's not like DV is being slapped on to every, or even a substantial portion, of discs.

[Geoff D]

I'm not here to get into a pissing contest. I just stated why I think that all three co-habiting on a disc ain't gonna happen any time soon.

[HeatEquation]

No pissing contest, it's just the reality of the situation. Suppose HDR10+ does become the base layer. If studios want to include DV on certain discs, for whatever reason, I'm sure they'll do so despite any complexities that may arise. DV will be an optional layer, so they obviously won't be forced to include it. It would happen only in the event that they believe the benefit from doing so would outweigh the "headache" it would create.

[CRMA]

Hey Guys,
I need some feedback:
Looking at new Apple 4k TV vs 8500 Samsung 4k Bluray player.
Apple boasts DV but Samsung is trying their own HDR10+. Should I get the Apple TV in hopes that DV will eventually be on my Samsung TV?

[HeatEquation]

Originally Posted by CRMA

Hey Guys,
I need some feedback:
Looking at new Apple 4k TV vs 8500 Samsung 4k Bluray player.
Apple boasts DV but Samsung is trying their own HDR10+. Should I get the Apple TV in hopes that DV will eventually be on my Samsung TV?

Get the M9500 or M8500. They already support HDR10+ via streaming, and there's a chance they could support HDR10+ via disc playback as well. Or just wait until the 2018 players are announced.

[PeterTHX]

Originally Posted by CRMA

Hey Guys,
I need some feedback:
Looking at new Apple 4k TV vs 8500 Samsung 4k Bluray player.
Apple boasts DV but Samsung is trying their own HDR10+. Should I get the Apple TV in hopes that DV will eventually be on my Samsung TV?

Nearly all studios support DV, in either streaming or disc or both.

One studio has given HDR10+ tentative support. No streaming devices support it, no current players can.

Do the math.

[HeatEquation]

Originally Posted by PeterTHX

Nearly all studios partially support DV. Exactly zero fully support it.

One studio has given HDR10+ full support, before it has even launched.

Fixed.

[PeterTHX]

Originally Posted by HeatEquation

Fixed.

Lies you mean.

[HeatEquation]

Originally Posted by PeterTHX

Lies you mean.

100% factual.

However, the only support it really needs is that of the BDA. And it looks like it may have the support required to become the mandatory layer.