HDR Discussion Thread

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by TheSweetieMan

Thanks for providing more insight into Deakins' process. Sometimes he's rather short with his responses on his forum--which is understandable--that it's hard to get the full intent and context of what he's saying. Either way, he obviously signed off on the HDR pass for 'Sicario'. But man, the way he was adamant about no one being able to tell him how bright or dark his content needs to look, was awfully telling to me.

And, it's not like Deakins is some old timer who is against new technologies. He was one of the first adopters of digital, after all. But he did provide some perspective for me when it comes to HDR, and how even he finds it silly to have these brands attempting to have these panels hit upwards to 10,000-nits.

IMO, I think once you need a bias light with your home theatre setup, that's when you know you don't need any more brightness.

I would also be curious to see what Vogt-Roberts viewed the HDR grade on. He later shared his excitement in regard to Dolby Vision (don't know if you saw that or not)--but still stated that for 'Kong', it wasn't meant to be viewed in HDR10 or Dolby Vision. That's why I'm content with owning the regular blu-ray for that film.

Deakins literally just said the following about HDR when someone aksed him his opinion on it:

Originally Posted by Roger A. Deakins

It is nice having the depth of the black and the option to brighten a highlight but if HDR is used as it is advertised I find it quite distracting.

I didn't know that Vogt-Roberts went all weak at the knees for Dolby Vision (I don't follow anyone or anything on social media, I just pick it all up from you guys) but that just makes his stance on Kong even more curious.

[PeterTHX]

Originally Posted by HeatEquation

Your only experience with Philips products comes from Philips Funai/USA, which support DV.

Their higher quality products in Europe, which is their biggest market, are the ones that will be supporting HDR10+.

Oh really? Mind telling me what other products I've used and had experience with in the 30+ years in the biz?

[TheSweetieMan]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Deakins literally just said the following about HDR when someone aksed him his opinion on it:

I didn't know that Vogt-Roberts went all weak at the knees for Dolby Vision (I don't follow anyone or anything on social media, I just pick it all up from you guys) but that just makes his stance on Kong even more curious.

See, my man.

This is why I've been at peace with my purchase of the lowly-nit OLEDs. Peak brightness doesn't seem to matter as much to him as the actual extended dynamic range does. To me, that should be the approach to HDR, anyway. If it can be used as a complimentary feature to what is being captured, then that's what I'd like to see.

Not every film needs to look like 'Pacific Rim' or 'Guardians 2', you know what I mean?

[HeatEquation]

Originally Posted by TheSweetieMan

See, my man.

This is why I've been at peace with my purchase of the lowly-nit OLEDs. Peak brightness doesn't seem to matter as much to him as the actual extended dynamic range does. To me, that should be the approach to HDR, anyway. If it can be used as a complimentary feature to what is being captured, then that's what I'd like to see.

Not every film needs to look like 'Pacific Rim' or 'Guardians 2', you know what I mean?

You realize that peak brightness is only used for like 2% and 5% windows, right? It's not meant to brighten the entire image to 1000+ nits, only very small parts of it in order to give a sense of depth, by displaying a greater contrast between light and dark, or as you put it, an extended dynamic range.

[TheSweetieMan]

Originally Posted by HeatEquation

You realize that peak brightness is only used for like 2% and 5% windows, right? It's not meant to brighten the entire image to 1000+ nits, only very small parts of it in order to give a sense of depth, by displaying a greater contrast between light and dark, or as you put it, an extended dynamic range.

Full context: the extended range of not just light or dark, but color as well.

You're not telling me something I don't already know. So, I don't care.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by TheSweetieMan

Also, I'll gladly take credit for being the first person to coin the term 'nit wars'.

If memory serves, first time I believe I heard that phrase used publicly was by Ken Kerschbaumer (who b.t.w. will be speaking at the upcoming InterBee 2017).

I prefer thinking what can happen with consumer electronics companies ultimately in terms of a color volume war (or race), run the youtube link quoted in this post - https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...s#post13102144

Bottom line, don’t think of the value of higher nits only in terms of brightness as it also expands the box of crayons, which can be especially valuable with animated movies.

[PeterTHX]

https://www.cnbc.com/2017/11/06/21st...y-sources.html

Interesting.

If it went through, Fox Home Video gets folded under Disney and HDR10+ would have no content on disc.

[HeatEquation]

Disney movies in HDR10+ on disc is now a possibility.



No wonder they have not committed to DV on disc.

[TheSweetieMan]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

If memory serves, first time I believe I heard that phrase used publicly was by Ken Kerschbaumer (who b.t.w. will be speaking at the upcoming InterBee 2017).

I prefer thinking what can happen with consumer electronics companies ultimately in terms of a color volume war (or race), run the youtube link quoted in this post - https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...s#post13102144

Bottom line, don’t think of the value of higher nits only in terms of brightness as it also expands the box of crayons, which can be especially valuable with animated movies.

Actually, color volume would be higher on my list than improved brightness. Not just for OLED--but any panel technology.

As much as I've enjoyed Dolby Vision in the comfort of my own home, on a 'monitor' that still gets brighter than a projector, there's still a noticeably more amount of color, and color detail, in the Dolby Cinema theatrical presentation.

So, an expansion of volume coverage for rec.2020 would be cool.

[TheSweetieMan]

Originally Posted by PeterTHX

https://www.cnbc.com/2017/11/06/21st...y-sources.html

Interesting.

If it went through, Fox Home Video gets folded under Disney and HDR10+ would have no content on disc.

Not sure how I feel about this. On one hand, with Disney still intending to commit to Dolby Vision on disc, it would certainly open the door on eventual Dolby Vision reissues for 'Logan', 'Deadpool', and 'Alien'--but the idea of a company basically monopolizing the film industry, just so people can see their favorite X-Men character hug their favorite Avenger... no thanks.

[gkolb]

Originally Posted by HeatEquation

Disney movies in HDR10+ on disc is now a possibility.


No wonder they have not committed to DV on disc.

Funny thing, when I read this story 2 hours ago, I assumed a similar conclusion as Peter did. The 10+ experiment would end.

[bruceames]

Originally Posted by TheSweetieMan

Actually, color volume would be higher on my list than improved brightness. Not just for OLED--but any panel technology.

As much as I've enjoyed Dolby Vision in the comfort of my own home, on a 'monitor' that still gets brighter than a projector, there's still a noticeably more amount of color, and color detail, in the Dolby Cinema theatrical presentation.

So, an expansion of volume coverage for rec.2020 would be cool.

Color volume and brightness tend to go hand in hand. If you improve the dynamic range then you also increase the color volume. It's not a coincidence that the TVs with the highest color volume are also some of the brightest.

http://www.rtings.com/tv/tests/pictu...3-and-rec-2020

[TheSweetieMan]

Originally Posted by bruceames

Color volume and brightness tend to go hand in hand. If you improve the dynamic range then you also increase the color volume. It's not a coincidence that the TVs with the highest color volume are also some of the brightest.

http://www.rtings.com/tv/tests/pictu...3-and-rec-2020

If that were true, then how does that explain the QLED failure?

How does that explain the E7 being in the top-5 of that list?

How does that explain Dolby Cinema being able to cover more color volume despite the projector not getting as bright as a TV panel?

[HeatEquation]

Originally Posted by gkolb

Funny thing, when I read this story 2 hours ago, I assumed a similar conclusion as Peter did. The 10+ experiment would end.

That's not how it works. Fox has entered into a partnership with Samsung and Panasonic and formed a licensing entity that will begin licensing HDR10+ to different TV manufacturers, blu ray players, set top box manufacturers, SoC vendors, etc., in January.

Disney will not throw away money just because two guys online hate HDR10+. Imagine how lucrative this licensing program will be if/when Disney adds their name to it.

This is likely why Disney has not committed to DV on disc.

I hope the sale does happen. That would be a game changer.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by bruceames

Color volume and brightness tend to go hand in hand. If you improve the dynamic range then you also increase the color volume. It's not a coincidence that the TVs with the highest color volume are also some of the brightest.

http://www.rtings.com/tv/tests/pictu...3-and-rec-2020

Yes, that's exactly the point of Penton's "box of crayons" remark.

[gkolb]

I actually hope Fox movies goes to a different buyer.
Disney has too many irons in the fire now, Fox needs to be separate to do what it is doing.

[HeatEquation]

Originally Posted by gkolb

I actually hope Fox movies goes to a different buyer.
Disney has too many irons in the fire now, Fox needs to be separate to do what it is doing.

lol

[TheSweetieMan]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Yes, that's exactly the point of Penton's "box of crayons" remark.

And if the main benefit of that is for animated film, fair enough. I'm not going to deny the fact that there isn't an audience for those films within this format, because there is.

But, being more partial to not only live action films, but films that use a more realistic color palette, I guess I'm not overly concerned with it after all.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by TheSweetieMan

If that were true, then how does that explain the QLED failure?

Brightness doesn't mean an automatic pass, it's still got to be executed within the tech and Samsung done ****ed up with their QLED

How does that explain the E7 being in the top-5 of that list?

The fabulous contrast of OLED will go a long way towards covering a good amount colour volume, especially in the darker reaches of the image, whereas the brighter extremes of the tech can sometims 'thin out' the colour as the range of available nittage falls short of the intended brightness target

How does that explain Dolby Cinema being able to cover more color volume despite the projector not getting as bright as a TV panel?

laser projectors with actual 2020 gamut coverage (or near as) are a hell of a thing

[TheSweetieMan]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Brightness doesn't mean an automatic pass, it's still got to be executed within the tech and Samsung done ****ed up with their QLED

The fabulous contrast of OLED will go a long way towards covering a good amount colour volume, especially in the darker reaches of the image, whereas the brighter extremes of the tech can sometims 'thin out' the colour as the range of available nittage falls short of the intended brightness target

laser projectors with actual 2020 gamut coverage (or near as) are a hell of a thing

Yeah, Samsung is a mess right now with their flasgship panels. Genuinely surprised they won't commit to OLED at all. But that's probably another discussion entirely.

Thanks again for the insight. I should've figured the contrast levels help LG with the color volume of their OLEDs. Corresponds to Teoh's comments about how even in sdr content, it provides suitable dynamic range.

Personally, this is all the more reason why Dolby Vision should've been the HDR mandate. Every title is graded at 4,000-nits anyway. It provides smoother color gradation; so for higher-end LCD panels, like your Z9 for instance, you may not need the dynamic metadata as much, but the addition of 12-bit color to compliment the smooth color that Sony already produces, would be nice. And then for consumers with panels that struggle to hit 1,000-nits, you get the dynamic metadata to at least translate the images across the screen, from start to finish, the way it was at least meant to be viewed when graded.