HDR Discussion Thread

[mrtickleuk]

Originally Posted by zmarty

If everything goes to plan, some of my videos will be shown in HDR10+ on a satellite channel in early February. In terms of color grading nothing changes for me, they add the HDR10+ dynamic stuff during the final encoding process. I still deliver in PQ as usual.

Is there any chance you could persuade/beg them to give back to you the final HDR10+ versions please? It is so frustrating that - even now after something like 15 months - there is not one single HDR10+ demo in the entire world that we can download, put on a USB stick, and test on our TVs.

It would address so many questions: does my TV playback HDR10+ or not; are the rumours that firmware X supports HDR10+ true or not; can I actually see a difference or not; does the TV indicate HDR10+ anywhere in its on-screen "Info banner" displays or not; etc.

All we need is just ONE downloadable HDR10+ demo clip! It's so frustrating that there's not even ONE.

Thanks in advance

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by DanBa

It should be interesting to assess the picture quality of your PQ videos and your same HDR10+ videos.

Yes, it will be a good test of static vs dynamic mapping, but as he said (and what I've been saying about dynamic metadata for a while now: https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...a#post14263600) his source grading doesn't change in any way, shape or form because he's still grading in PQ. You do the grade first and then the metadata follows, this is true even for Dolby Vision. The source is the source is the source and always has been, the metadata is simply there to facilitate the best possible downconversion to the target display, not to function as a creative tool during the actual grading process. The metadata itself can be tweaked (in the case of DV, anyway) when looking at the base downconversion (usually SDR 709, again in the case of DV) to ensure that the conversion is as accurate as can be but it plays no part during the master grading itself.

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Appears to be an instinctive trait of our species to admire an intact, non-adipose laden rectus abdominis as exemplified at the last CES…. https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...s#post14579818

People don't like looking at fatty guts, eh? Who'da thunk it?

[gkolb]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Wake up LordoftheRings . This ^ is your chance to move up on gkolb before thee end of the month tally and get into the top ten - https://forum.blu-ray.com/misc.php?d...osted&t=276605

So far, January highlights appear to include Geoff having surged ahead in numbers, Heat is back in the penalty box….maybe he’ll do a short shift on the ice once the HDR10+ Alliance has an internet site up and actively running (http://www.hdr10plus.org/).

Um, this isn't a competition, is it?

We're here to elucidate and commiserate with others in our hobby.

You see what I did there, another post?

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by gkolb

We're here to elucidate and commiserate with others in our hobby.

Elucidation and commiseration in high school in Boring, Oregon in HDR -
http://www.digitalspy.com/tv/everyth...ks-first-look/
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt7078710/...ef_=tt_dt_spec

Originally Posted by gkolb

You see what I did there, another post?

You’re creeping up on PeterTHX.

[DanBa]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Yes, it will be a good test of static vs dynamic mapping, but as he said (and what I've been saying about dynamic metadata for a while now: https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...a#post14263600) his source grading doesn't change in any way, shape or form because he's still grading in PQ. You do the grade first and then the metadata follows, this is true even for Dolby Vision. The source is the source is the source and always has been, the metadata is simply there to facilitate the best possible downconversion to the target display, not to function as a creative tool during the actual grading process. The metadata itself can be tweaked (in the case of DV, anyway) when looking at the base downconversion (usually SDR 709, again in the case of DV) to ensure that the conversion is as accurate as can be but it plays no part during the master grading itself.
...

There is only one video track / source.

But as far as I understand, Dolby Vision metadata are generated and finalized at the end of two main grading steps involving the Dolby Pulsar reference monitor in the first one, and the Dolby CMU along with one or several client monitors in the last one in order to deal in particular with some color appearance phenomena like the Hunt effect.
https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...t#post13204106



http://www.cctvpro.com.cn/2017/08/28...09966709.shtml
http://vanhurkman.com/wordpress/?p=3548

[Geoff D]

As I said, the grading and all relevant creative decisions are carried out first, they always have been. Your master version is created thus resulting in the box on the top left while the generation of your trim passes to both "generic" HDR10 and SDR 709 are what's taking place on the right. AFAIK the CMU is there to reinterpret the creative decisions that have been made in view of downconversion (including your Hunt effect), not to alter the source itself.

[edit] As your linked post states, DV is about creating one specific master grade and everything that follows on from that is mostly sets of metadata for outputting various versions with lesser peak luminance. Your source grading isn't being changed but the interpretation of it on x display most certainly is, which is of course why user responses to static-metadata HDR are so ****ed up across a wide range of displays and display types. C'est la luminance absolute.

[DanBa]

Normally, the two main Dolby Vision grading steps are carried out by the colorist following the creative decisions / instructions of the director.

There are two interesting Dolby patents:
https://www.google.com.na/patents/US20120026405
https://www.google.com/patents/US9819974

[LordoftheRings]

Originally Posted by gkolb

Um, this isn't a competition, is it?

We're here to elucidate and commiserate with others in our hobby.

You see what I did there, another post?

I don't know Penton more than his contributions on HDR.
Statistics are a sign of a scientific society. Maybe he's a statman all the way?
That's why I didn't put any weight to it.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by DanBa

Normally, the two main Dolby Vision grading steps are carried out by the colorist following the creative decisions / instructions of the director.

There are two interesting Dolby patents:
https://www.google.com.na/patents/US20120026405
https://www.google.com/patents/US9819974

[Show spoiler]

Those patents appear to pertain more to being able to grade two versions simultaneously, both the master and the mapped version, rather than editing a finalised grade after the fact. I'll readily concede that the system allows for that to be sure, but one of the footnotes says this (emphasis mine):

Although appearance mapping may be performed on the image data prior to the color grading, in the video editing system 100 the appearance mapping is performed on the image data 124 after color grading.

Autodesk's DV mastering workflow for Lustre doesn't pertain to adjusting the actual source after the fact, it's purely about creating, adjusting and appending the mapping metadata:

Note that before you begin the Dolby Vision mastering process you need to have a finished HDR timeline that has been graded for your HDR reference display. The Dolby Vision mastering process simply creates metadata to accompany these image files, the image files are not changed.

https://knowledge.autodesk.com/suppo...A121E-htm.html

They then state that if you use any of the actual grading controls to adjust your reference HDR grade during this process then it will throw the generated DV metadata out of whack so you need to quit the DV process, re-render your 'reference' grade with the changes and then input it back into the CMU to generate new metadata. So it's certainly not an impossible process but it's not typically a necessary one either because the final creative-approved (we hope ) HDR grade is usually what's being fed into these systems to create the metadata from, not the other way around.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

DV is about

Not resting on one’s laurels, but constantly doing advanced R&D to improve HDR.

For example, fairly recently Dolby found that applying perceptual transforms to five key HDR performance characteristics better predicts display quality as compared to existing physical metrics, which has implications, a snippet –

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by LordoftheRings

I don't know Penton more than his contributions on HDR.
Statistics are a sign of a scientific society. Maybe he's a statman all the way?

un momento

[LordoftheRings]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

un momento

Oui monsieur Penton, vous disiez?

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Not resting on one’s laurels, but constantly doing advanced R&D to improve HDR.

For example, fairly recently Dolby found that applying perceptual transforms to five key HDR performance characteristics better predicts display quality as compared to existing physical metrics, which has implications, a snippet –

[Show spoiler]

Never said that they weren't out to improve anything but again, that seems to relate to using perceptual rather than solely technical parameters to improve the mapping of the image on a "distorted" display rather than my point of the master grade itself being the supreme authority from which all other authority is derived.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by DanBa

the Dolby Pulsar reference monitor

Since readers appear too involved to answer Shalashaska’s query (but maybe ray from Michigan will chime in to help), does anyone (including lurking colorists reading who’ve visited Dolby in either Sunnyvale or Burbank) know how many zones thee Dolby Pulsar has?

A. 1000+
B. 2000+
C. 3000+
D. 4000+
E. 5000+
F. 6000+

P.S. And as PaulGo painfully reminded me recently – https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...t#post14582007

, no, you don’t get a free leather jacket (https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...et#post8663065) for the correct answer

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Never said that they weren't out to improve anything but again, that seems to relate to using perceptual rather than solely technical parameters to improve the mapping of the image on a "distorted" display rather than my point of the master grade itself being the supreme authority from which all other authority is derived.

didn't say you didn't
it was supplemental new information that hasn't been posted before on any forum/message board

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by LordoftheRings

Oui monsieur Penton, vous disiez?

J'aime le québec

[LordoftheRings]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

J'aime le québec

We're still open, the bars late in the wee morning hours, and the government.
That's where we all hang out together.

[PaulGo]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Since readers appear too involved to answer Shalashaska’s query (but maybe ray from Michigan will chime in to help), does anyone (including lurking colorists reading who’ve visited Dolby in either Sunnyvale or Burbank) know how many zones thee Dolby Pulsar has?

A. 1000+
B. 2000+
C. 3000+
D. 4000+
E. 5000+
F. 6000+

P.S. And as PaulGo painfully reminded me recently – https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...t#post14582007

, no, you don’t get a free leather jacket (https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...et#post8663065) for the correct answer

"The first element of dual modulation is the unique 12-bit backlight unit, consisting of approximately 1,500 RGB LED triads that directly illuminate the LCD panel."

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...xz1iNaBJs7o6K3

So three would be over 4000+. Of course the way you worded it A, B or C would also be correct.

[Ernest Rister]

Ordered a used 55" Samsung JU7100 from "Amazon Warehouse" yesterday, won't be here until next Monday. I think the most it is capable of is HDR10, and it isn't "true" zone HDR...but I was starting to panic about the increasing dearth of 3D televisions, with unsold new models containing HDR and 3D shooting into the stratosphere in terms of price. Anyway, it's used, and a 2015 model. Price was the breaking point, at worst, I paid about $850 for a 4k 3D TV. We'll see how it works out. No, it's not going to match today's HDR or Dolby sets, I knew that when I ordered it, but my darling wife balked even at the $850 (after taxes).

Now watch it show up with spray paint all over the screen.

[PaulGo]

Originally Posted by Ernest Rister

Ordered a used 55" Samsung JU7100 from "Amazon Warehouse" yesterday, won't be here until next Monday. I think the most it is capable of is HDR10, and it isn't "true" zone HDR...but I was starting to panic about the increasing dearth of 3D televisions, with unsold new models containing HDR and 3D shooting into the stratosphere in terms of price. Anyway, it's used, and a 2015 model. Price was the breaking point, at worst, I paid about $850 for a 4k 3D TV. We'll see how it works out. No, it's not going to match today's HDR or Dolby sets, I knew that when I ordered it, but my darling wife balked even at the $850 (after taxes).

Now watch it show up with spray paint all over the screen.

https://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/samsung/ju7100