HDR Discussion Thread

[Penton-Man]

For the sake of home theater folk, when I get around to it, I’ll have to address this assertion on another forum, which I believe is misleading, i.e. the bolded…

"It's a bit of a can of worms, ultimately you have to remember that Dolby Vision was designed for Theatres, not for home, which in turn means that HDR10, which uses the exact same output principles is also pretty unsuitable.

The formats are designed to standardise the content and ensure it is produced in a controlled manner and that the hardware is displaying it in a controlled manner, but as the formats (that have been adopted and pushed by TV manufacturers) ultimately weren't intended for TVs in people homes, games and UHD movies are already fudging their outputs to try and bypass some of the "rules" dictated by the format.”
https://www.resetera.com/threads/hdr...6#post-4791881

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Robert Zohn

...how sharing worthy information from other forums is a good thing for all parties. Reminds me of the Rotary 4-way test:

The Rotarians Four-Way Test:...

Indeed, just once in awhile it would be good if other outside forum(s) showed some reciprocity, rather than the forum of Blu-ray.com always doing them the favor by expanding their readership by linking and thereby indirectly promoting them here.

I think I've expressed my sentiment with regards to this topic to Waboman in the past, i.e. true science, as readily evidenced by scientific journal papers, is not bounded by language, country, or walled off forums….nor, for that matter, these days space....https://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/s...ents/1281.html

P.S.
Can anyone post an image from the Heidelberg (software Version 6.3.4), even if only in grey scale?

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

space...

SMPTE 2017: Engineering a Live UHD Program from the International Space Station - YouTube

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by LordoftheRings

Cool, Penton in a tux.

The key is to annonymously avoid those elephant seals…..

Up Close With King Penguins and Elephant Seals | Short Film Showcase - YouTube

[Waboman]

Thomas Dolby - She Blinded Me With Science - YouTube

[Waboman]

In the name of science and to improve the HDR experience, today is National Margarita Day. And what makes HDR better than a margarita? Two margaritas!

[Show spoiler]

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

For the sake of home theater folk, when I get around to it, I’ll have to address this assertion on another forum, which I believe is misleading, i.e. the bolded…"Dolby Vision was designed for Theatres, not for home...."

To be clear, the following is not meant to disparage the gamer dudes in that gamer forum, resetera and esp. not the OP, Boris, of that particular thread linked earlier , as I think he and his work is in a league above what is typically posted by bloggers and such on the internet if anything because of its originality . The purpose here is to clarity the origins of the work (and intent) that went into Dolby Vision, be it for home or cinema use.

So, if readership recalls, several years ago I posted this list of papers/presentations on this forum about design work which focused mainly on small screen (home) applications -



which were published in 2012 and 2013 -

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

https://talks.stanford.edu/scott-daly-timo-kunkel/ 2012
Preference limits of the visual dynamic range for ultra high quality and Aesthetic Conveyance, S. Daly, T.Kunkel, X.Sun, S. Farrell and P. Crum (2013) SPIE Electronic Imaging, HVEI, Burlingame, CA, Feb 2013
Viewer Preferences for Shadow, Diffuse, Specular and Emissive Luminance Limits of High Dynamic Range Displays, S. Daly, T. Kunkel, X. Sun, S. Farrell, and P. Crum (2013) SID Display Week May 2013, paper 41.1, Vancouver, Canada.
Demographics of viewer preference for the luminance limits of Displayed Dynamic range imagery, S. Farrell, S. Daly, T. Kunkel, and P. Griffis (2013) SMPTE Australia, July.

not to mention, but really of most significance, the TV transformative contribution to the ITU in 2012 -

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

b.t.w, after rechecking the specific ITU Contribution which I referenced in the bottom quote on the last page - https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...l#post12868423, namely -




to be precise, the body of that milestone report from the USA is indeed about 80 pages, however, it also consists of an additional 15 pages of Appendices.

which got the whole HDR ball rolling for standards acceptance in the first place.
The following year (2014), work was presented to the professional community with regards to focusing on large screen (theatrical) Dolby Vision applications.

Looking back, since I’d forgotten we have some ‘naked’ members here from Japan - https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...d#post14739017 , in order to be more comprehensive with regards to the original bibliography above, I should have also included this presentation to the list as a courtesy to our Japanese membership -
Using image Dimension Dissection to Study Viewer Preferences of Luminance Range in Displayed Imagery, S. Daly, T. Kunkel, and S. Farrell (2013) invited talk, IDW, International Workshop on Displays, SID, Sapporo, Japan, Dec. 6, 2013

So, in conclusion, despite Dolby Cinema with the Dolby Vision projection systems commercial launch occurring prior to thee appearance of the first Dolby Vision TV, that does not necessarily mean that “Dolby Vision was designed for Theatres, not for home”. I think a more accurate understanding of the design intent is that the cinema and home implementations of the research are/were of equal significance. Indeed, the HDR/ WCG concept was first proven for small sized screens and then carried over later to larger sized screens -

A Cinema Luminance Range by the People, for the People: Viewer Preferences on Luminance Limits for a Large Screen Environment
Conference Paper in SMPTE Motion Imaging Journal124(5) • October 2014
SMPTE annual technical conference and meeting, At Hollywood , Ca.
https://www.researchgate.net/publica...en_Environment

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

"The formats are designed to standardise the content and ensure it is produced in a controlled manner and that the hardware is displaying it in a controlled manner, but as the formats (that have been adopted and pushed by TV manufacturers) ultimately weren't intended for TVs in people homes, games and UHD movies are already fudging their outputs to try and bypass some of the "rules" dictated by the format.”
https://www.resetera.com/threads/hdr...6#post-4791881

The control proposition of DV and HDR10, or for that matter, HDR10+, demonstrates significant differences. HDR10+ does not specify how the metadata gets utilized by the target display. DV certifies DV implementations as accurately displaying their content in a more standardized fashion.

Undoubtedly there will be hiccups along the way with all HDR flavors, be they premium grade or regular. Over the course of time, things will continue to be refined, for instance the addition of X265 AQ-mode 3 (http://x265.readthedocs.io/en/default/releasenotes.html) has already helped controlling artifacts in sunset and sunrise scenes with some HDR content.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Waboman

Thomas Dolby - She Blinded Me With Science - YouTube

Some engineers and scientists just feel the need….the need for speed,
motorized – https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...n#post14738595

or pedal power-

https://twitter.com/MrMXF

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Some engineers and scientists just feel the need….the need for speed,
motorized –

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

a survivor and man of many talents, e.g. at Laguna Seca raceway….

^ is seated behind the table, 2nd from the right ->


Now, if I can get him to drive on over to my house with all his fancy commercial grade power tools to fix my iron gate, like I did for him/his earlier on that long day in the heat, I’ll be set home improvement-wise.

As the well informed here on Blu-ray.com have already known for awhile that "live content will drive HDR consumer adoption". I've bean beating that into their brains for months.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Waboman

In the name of science and to improve the HDR experience, today is National Margarita Day. And what makes HDR better than a margarita? Two margaritas!

[Show spoiler]

cue LordoftheRings
where’s Jimmy Buffet YouTubes to get us all in the mood?
Mark Schubin may raffle off his flip flops when he runs out of quiz questions.

[PeterTHX]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

So, in conclusion, despite Dolby Cinema with the Dolby Vision projection systems commercial launch occurring prior to thee appearance of the first Dolby Vision TV, that does not necessarily mean that “Dolby Vision was designed for Theatres, not for home”.

It's not without precedent for Dolby. AC-3 (Dolby Digital) was in the design process for HDTV applications when Dolby ported it to theatrical sound application in 1991 (Star Trek VI was the test film) where it eventually became the leading 5.1 delivery system for theaters until digital projection took over. It wasn't until 1995 and LaserDisc when AC-3 came home and became the defacto standard for audio in DVD, HDTV, cable, satellite, etc.

[gkolb]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

...
As the well informed here on Blu-ray.com have already known for awhile that "live content will drive HDR consumer adoption". I've bean beating that into their brains for months.

:best British accent: Here, Here...

When sports and other special events can be watched in HDR and UHD on a weekly or (shudders) "on demand" basis, then you'll have their hearts and minds.

[Staying Salty]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Undoubtedly there will be hiccups along the way with all HDR flavors, be they premium grade or regular. Over the course of time, things will continue to be refined, for instance the addition of X265 AQ-mode 3 (http://x265.readthedocs.io/en/default/releasenotes.html)...

Encoder enhancements: 1.Slice-parallel mode gets a significant boost in performance, particularly in low-latency mode.

Wonder if this deals with DoVi?

HDR10+ got a lot of in the various revisions.

*

[Show spoiler]*The capacity to accept or tolerate delay, problems, or trouble, without becoming angry, annoyed, upset or anxious.

[Show spoiler]After all, “Patience is a Virtue”, which we all have in spades.

[LordoftheRings]

Aurora HDR

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

The control proposition of DV and HDR10, or for that matter, HDR10+, demonstrates significant differences. HDR10+ does not specify how the metadata gets utilized by the target display. DV certifies DV implementations as accurately displaying their content in a more standardized fashion.

Undoubtedly there will be hiccups along the way with all HDR flavors, be they premium grade or regular. Over the course of time, things will continue to be refined, for instance the addition of X265 AQ-mode 3 (http://x265.readthedocs.io/en/default/releasenotes.html) has already helped controlling artifacts in sunset and sunrise scenes with some HDR content.

Glad to hear it, as much as I love mah HDR those kinds of scenes can present problems. But doesn't the release table show that mode 3 was already there in 2015? If the artefacty sunrises in something like The Martian are a result of the encoder already having been improved then I dread to think what they were like before.

[RockyIII]

I must confess a secret: been watching more UHDs in HDR10 lately than in Dolby Vision

[Geoff D]

Rocky be like: bad Rocky! Rocky must be punished!

[RockyIII]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Rocky be like: bad Rocky! Rocky must be punished!

Yesterday I wanted to watch Valerian and something in me made me choose my HDR10 player over my DV-ready player.
Once the elevated blacks are seen they cannot be unseen.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J320A using Tapatalk

[Geoff D]

Goes without saying but I really hope they get a handle on this black level problem. Not just for my own circumstances (as/when the Euro ZD9's finally gets the DV update) but for the wider user base, all them extra metadatas and bits and whatever are great but a niggly distraction can sometimes be the most annoying thing of all. If, after all this, the Sony sets also have this problem then I'll stick with HDR10 and be done with it.