HDR Discussion Thread

[DanBa]

I think HLG is no more "regional" because Google supports it, particularly for YouTube Live in HDR.

[PeterTHX]

Originally Posted by DanBa

I think HLG is no more "regional" because Google supports it, particularly for YouTube Live in HDR.

Not anymore than VP9 was accepted over HEVC.

[DanBa]

Originally Posted by Richard Paul

The group working on UHD-1 Phase 2 has announced that the specification has been completed and will support both HLG and PQ. The specification will be voted on by the DVB steering board next month.

Let’s reiterate that ITU (cf. ITU-R BT.2100) and Google (i.e. "YouTube HDR" / VP9-PQ / VP9-HLG) also support PQ and HLG.




Potential HDR formats:



The different ST 2094 dynamic metadata methods shall be added to the upcoming HEVC V5, which will be finalized in October 2017.
http://www.itu.int/ITU-T/workprog/wp...18&isn_qu=2025


The ideal HDR TV shall be compatible with all existing and being standardized (i.e. via committed upgrade) HDR formats:
. existing HDR formats: HDR10 and Dolby Vision
. being standardized HDR formats: ST 2094-10 Dynamic HDR, ST 2094-20 Dynamic HDR, ST 2094-30 Dynamic HDR, ST 2094-40 Dynamic HDR, BBC/NHK HLG HDR, VP9-HLG and VP9-PQ.

Such an universal HDR TV can be designed around universal HDR-compliant SoC like Sigma Designs STV7804 SoC which is compatible with HLG, HDR10 and Dolby Vision. http://www.sigmadesigns.com/news/sig...ate-converter/

Such an universal HDR TV should be compatible with the upcoming HDMI 2.1 which should use the upcoming CTA-861-G supporting HLG and SMPTE ST 2094 dynamic metadata (HDMI 2.0a uses CTA-861.3).




Industry-driven HDR or consumer-driven HDR:

Can we let "what happens in the industry happens"?

Can we trust the industry: first, creation of a HDR format (i.e. CTA HDR10 or BDA BDMV HDR = ST 2086 + ST 2084), then standardization of the missing dynamic metadata adaptation for consistent visual ST 2094, one of the 3 fundamental HDR building blocks?



As the industry is unable to reach a consensus on HDR, consumers should take over and push for universal HDR-compliant TV which shall be compatible with all existing and being standardized (i.e. via committed upgrade) HDR formats.

[Penton-Man]

With regards to dynamic metadata (for instance ST 2094-10, which is the SMPTE reference for Dolby’s implementation for tone mapping and color volume remapping guidance which seems most popular in the AV press) just as with Blu-ray and 3D (http://www.prnewswire.co.uk/news-rel...155216085.html which yielded ->
http://www.businesswire.com/news/hom...-Specification),

Ultra HD Blu-ray can be updated to support new features.

The challenge is what I’ve now bolded for emphasis in a past response to another member on the last page. Technically speaking, the physical format could handle such an update.

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

any revision to the spec and hardware or software tools to implement it depends on the degree of motivation by the board members of the BDA to aggressively champion the continued development of physical media in the future. Everyone’s mind and energy seems more directed to what Walt (the Director of Image Technologies at Dolby Labs) will be speaking about tomorrow afternoon, namely internet delivery of HDR content.

Just in terms of what we have now, as I mentioned to the OP, bruceames. months ago during which I posted the the MaxCLL histogram of a popular feature film, currently, probably the greatest handicap of the Ultra HD Blu-ray spec for colorists when mastering a movie is the lack of specification for a diffuse white luminance level thusly causing an inconsistent quality HDR 10 product (movies). I don’t envision rectifying that happening anytime soon...

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by PeterTHX

for North America...for Europe....

Update to this HDR oriented article from THR…..
http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/beh...a-brand-909051

There is now a demo installation primarily to engage creatives and local studios with the Éclair solution for HDR cinema….coincidentally at the same theater in Hollywood (on Sunset Blvd.) where Inside Out was graded in Dolby Vision and also where Dolby has done demo in the past for Insiders of its HDR system.

There are available time slots at 4pm on Tuesday, Nov. 1st and at noon on Thursday, Nov. 3rd. For those seriously interested, PM me for contact info to a V.P. (of Technology) at Éclair coordinating the invite.

[Richard Paul]

Originally Posted by PeterTHX

Like on the audio side (AC-4 & MPEG-H) video will more than likely be DV for North America and HLG for Europe.

Dolby has a lot of influence in the United States but I think they are fighting an uphill battle with Dolby Vision. That battle will only become harder when dynamic metadata can be sent over HDMI 2.1 which is why Dolby is trying to make sure that their dynamic metadata system gets added to HDR10.

Originally Posted by DanBa

I think HLG is no more "regional" because Google supports it, particularly for YouTube Live in HDR.

Regional politics can make a difference for some issues and the story of how Dolby AC-3 got chosen for ATSC is a very good example of that. I doubt that Dolby can make that happen again with ATSC 3.0 and Dolby Vision but I can understand why some people are expecting it.

Originally Posted by DanBa

The ideal HDR TV shall be compatible with all existing and being standardized (i.e. via committed upgrade) HDR formats:
. existing HDR formats: HDR10 and Dolby Vision
. being standardized HDR formats: ST 2094-10 Dynamic HDR, ST 2094-20 Dynamic HDR, ST 2094-30 Dynamic HDR, ST 2094-40 Dynamic HDR, BBC/NHK HLG HDR, VP9-HLG and VP9-PQ.

This is how I would rank them:

Very Important
HDMI 2.1
HDR10
HLG

Moderately Important
SMPTE ST 2094-10
SMPTE ST 2094-40

Optional
Dolby Vision - Once dynamic metadata gets added to HDR10 I think it will be a lot harder for a proprietary system.
SMPTE ST 2094-20
SMPTE ST 2094-30
VP9 HDR - Internet video devices are cheap.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Richard Paul

Very Important
HDMI

The thorn in every home enthusiast’s arse since as long as I can remember.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Update to this HDR oriented article from THR…..
http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/beh...a-brand-909051

There is now a demo installation primarily to engage creatives and local studios with the Éclair solution for HDR cinema….coincidentally at the same theater in Hollywood (on Sunset Blvd.) where Inside Out was graded in Dolby Vision and also where Dolby has done demo in the past for Insiders of its HDR system.

There are available time slots at 4pm on Tuesday, Nov. 1st and at noon on Thursday, Nov. 3rd. For those seriously interested, PM me for contact info to a V.P. (of Technology) at Éclair coordinating the invite.

Act fast though, as the slots are beginning to fill.

[PeterTHX]

Originally Posted by Richard Paul

Regional politics can make a difference for some issues and the story of how Dolby AC-3 got chosen for ATSC is a very good example of that. I doubt that Dolby can make that happen again with ATSC 3.0 and Dolby Vision but I can understand why some people are expecting it.

Um, because it works, and with little overhead?

AC-3 may have seemed "political" to some, but fact is that system worked too, and worked so well most of the world has adopted it. MPEG couldn't even get their system working properly for a long time.

[Penton-Man]

For the sake of the audio enthusiasts, I guess we should supplement the info on the last page with the fact that the TM of DBV also added the latest Next Generation Audio (NGA) schemes supporting objects or scene based audio….. http://myemail.constantcontact.com/D...id=0hdw_iH66fg

And to also note that David (in the pic) sure gets a lot of use out of that tie.

[Richard Paul]

Originally Posted by DanBa

The different ST 2094 dynamic metadata methods shall be added to the upcoming HEVC V5, which will be finalized in October 2017.
http://www.itu.int/ITU-T/workprog/wp...18&isn_qu=2025

There were no proposals for SMPTE ST 2094 at the last HEVC meeting and after looking around I read that they are thinking of using private SEI messages. A private SEI message can be put in a HEVC stream and any HEVC decoder that recognizes the private SEI message can use it or send it over HDMI 2.1. It makes things a bit more complicated but the advantage is that they wouldn't have to add SMPTE ST 2094 to the HEVC specification and could potentially have support for it in products released in 2017.

[DanBa]

As the industry is unable to reach a consensus on HDR, consumers should take over and push for universal HDR-compliant TV which shall be compatible with all existing and being standardized (i.e. via TV manufacturer-committed upgrade) HDR formats.

No more early-adopter industry-driven HDR TV incompatible with other HDR content, but consumer-driven universal HDR-compliant TV able to play any HDR content!

Please vote for universal HDR-compliant TV (i.e. "HDR TV shall support all HDR formats").
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/465-hi...-displays.html

Thank you!

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by Richard Paul

There were no proposals for SMPTE ST 2094 at the last HEVC meeting and after looking around I read that they are thinking of using private SEI messages. A private SEI message can be put in a HEVC stream and any HEVC decoder that recognizes the private SEI message can use it or send it over HDMI 2.1. It makes things a bit more complicated but the advantage is that they wouldn't have to add SMPTE ST 2094 to the HEVC specification and could potentially have support for it in products released in 2017.

Perhaps showing my ignorance here, but isn't that essentially how Dolby's special sauce (as, in the dynamic metadata in current DV movie streams) works too? That it's part of the stream but because it's a packet of proprietary data it doesn't have to be a formal part of the HEVC spec (and doesn't even need HDMI 2.1, for that matter)?

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Richard Paul

There were no proposals for SMPTE ST 2094 at the last HEVC meeting and...

Correct, by now it’s all a matter of public record except for a couple proposals unrelated (virtual reality/360 video).

[Richard Paul]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Perhaps showing my ignorance here, but isn't that essentially how Dolby's special sauce (as, in the dynamic metadata in current DV movie streams) works too? That it's part of the stream but because it's a packet of proprietary data it doesn't have to be a formal part of the HEVC spec (and doesn't even need HDMI 2.1, for that matter)?

I think the difference is that for Dolby Vision the metadata is sent using a proprietary method that requires a Dolby Vision decoder chip. A private SEI message is carried in the HEVC video stream like a standard SEI message and can be read by any HEVC decoder that recognizes that SEI message. It could potentially allow for a much faster deployment of SMPTE ST 2094 metadata.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by DanBa

As the industry is unable to reach a consensus on HDR, consumers should take over and push for universal HDR-compliant TV which shall be compatible with all existing and being standardized (i.e. via TV manufacturer-committed upgrade) HDR formats.

No more early-adopter industry-driven HDR TV incompatible with other HDR content, but consumer-driven universal HDR-compliant TV able to play any HDR content!

Please vote for universal HDR-compliant TV (i.e. "HDR TV shall support all HDR formats").
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/465-hi...-displays.html

Thank you!

Noble endeavor Dan but, did Richard post that on AVS or did you flip his post over to AVS (post #5)? If the later, that’s rather unfair to direct link AVS onto Blu-ray.com but not extend the same courtesy to Blu-ray.com, specifically this thread, on AVS. ....

Unless they have a rule over there which essentially frowns upon reciprocity. Non-biased observers having no preferred loyalty to either forum tend to believe they have a history of purposely ignoring exclusive or new (at the time) information, e.g. https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...6#post12680831

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Act fast though, as the slots are beginning to fill.

Contact info provided. Those who PMed, check your inboxes.

[DanBa]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Noble endeavor Dan but, did Richard post that on AVS or did you flip his post over to AVS (post #5)? If the later, that’s rather unfair to direct link AVS onto Blu-ray.com but not extend the same courtesy to Blu-ray.com, specifically this thread, on AVS. ....

Unless they have a rule over there which essentially frowns upon reciprocity. Non-biased observers having no preferred loyalty to either forum tend to believe they have a history of purposely ignoring exclusive or new (at the time) information, e.g. https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...6#post12680831

My bad!

Link to original post added!

[DanBa]

According to the CTO of Vizio, there is no specific Dolby Vision hardware chip, there is Dolby Vision compatible SoC, Dolby Vision is software (i.e. a SoC is a hardware & software computer system, and the SoC hardware is not specifically designed for Dolby Vision):
"There is no DV chip... DolbyVision is a format + processing/mapping SW."
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/166-lc...l#post43311322

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by Richard Paul

I think the difference is that for Dolby Vision the metadata is sent using a proprietary method that requires a Dolby Vision decoder chip. A private SEI message is carried in the HEVC video stream like a standard SEI message and can be read by any HEVC decoder that recognizes that SEI message. It could potentially allow for a much faster deployment of SMPTE ST 2094 metadata.

Sure, that's what I meant by "essentially": it's not using SEI specifically but they've embedded something proprietary in the signal which deploys the metadata, so if a source and a display both support DV then all this stuff about HEVC & HDMI revisions is circumvented quite neatly.

The heck of it all is, the optional Philips HDR system in the BD-ROM v3.0 white paper features this exact method of messaging, and I quote: "The Philips HDR SEI messages is a metadata to control down-conversion of the dynamic range of the BDMV HDR video stream to a dynamic range of the connected display". But I guess their proposal is a complete non-starter.