HDR Discussion Thread

[Penton-Man]

Fact -
https://www.hdmi.org/news_events/index.aspx#CTS2018

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

....Thee only thing I find somewhat odd about Netflix is that they routinely make the titles in their HDR content overly bright.

To be clear to anyone wondering, here ^ I’m referring to titling as in this - https://motionarray.com/motion-graph...e-titles-32612 , not all Netflix HDR movies being overly bright.

[gkolb]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Fact -
https://www.hdmi.org/news_events/index.aspx#CTS2018

Yup, facts are very helpful, and beat guessing every time.
Curious how eArc+ (correct terminology???) will be documented on new displays and if it will be referred to as HDMI 2.1, or just an extended 2.0?

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by LordoftheRings

....I wouldn't mind 240fps

Richard, back in the day, presenting here -
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p01ghcm9

and earlier, back in 2008 actually suggested to the ITU that we should develop a 300 fps TV system, but alas, NHK felt that such high a rate would be impractical for them to develop if such a standard were set.

[gkolb]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

until it's proven otherwise, marketing person next year announcing an ‘Amazon calibrated mode’ and/or a ‘Warner Bros. feature films calibrated mode’ or a ‘Sony Pictures calibrated’ mode -



P.S.
I’m especially looking forward to someone with way too much time on their hands generating a Venn diagram as to which brand TVs, support which specific studio content (calibrated, of course) modes in the years to come……..NOT.

That marketing guy sure has a winning smile. Reminds me of WKRP Herb Tarlek.
FINGERS CROSSED, BABY!

[DisplayCalNoob]

HDR10 doesn't scale well. In fact, HDR10 content on future TVs will look worse as those TV sets improve and peak brightness and darkness levels get better and and colour reproduction improves — sort of like trying to watch standard definition content on a 4K set.

Is this true?

https://www.lifehacker.com.au/2017/0...now-about-hdr/

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by LordoftheRings

Thx Penton.

You’re welcome.
Are you still in Vancouver or have you gone back to Montreal? I've got Montreal breaking thru my Brain today.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

watched a movie last night

For when you are in those movie threads again and are trying to describe to someone what different focal lengths do to the image and need a visual aid…..

LENSES FOCAL LENGTHS. The visual - YouTube

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by gkolb

Yup,....

gkolb, Cal - Must get ready for dinner now, wife set time limit at 6:00 P.M. for me to stop play online. Geoff, Robert, Kris, et al. should be able to answer your questions. g, as to more HDMI 2.1 stuff coming, look to NVIDIA.

[PeterTHX]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Thee only thing I find somewhat odd about Netflix is that they routinely make the titles in their HDR content overly bright.

It's not "Overly" Bright, it's just Bright on Netflix. In Dolby Vision HDR.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by PeterTHX

I hope you’ve been practicing your freestyle soccer skills. Back in the day I had decent skills and could perform most of everything this guy does during about the first 30 sec. of this clip, but no way the lamp post aerobatics….

Incredible Football Freestyle IYA TRAORE Hanging on Lamp Post and Juggling a Soccer Ball - YouTube

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by gkolb

Yup, facts are very helpful, and beat guessing every time.
Curious how eArc+ (correct terminology???) will be documented on new displays and if it will be referred to as HDMI 2.1, or just an extended 2.0?

Should document it as ‘HDMI 2.1 eARC’ as it is one of the features of 2.1(of which there are several).

For more background, scroll down to ‘eARC: the new kid in town’ - https://www.digitaltrends.com/home-t...ed-works-care/

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by DisplayCalNoob

HDR10 doesn't scale well. In fact, HDR10 content on future TVs will look worse as those TV sets improve and peak brightness and darkness levels get better and and colour reproduction improves — sort of like trying to watch standard definition content on a 4K set.

Is this true?

https://www.lifehacker.com.au/2017/0...now-about-hdr/

I wouldn’t worry about 'the scaling'. First off, regarding his peak brightness comment about HDR10, the writer is plain wrong. From the article - “specifically (Dolby Vision), it can replicate up to Rec. 2020 and a theoretical 10,000 nits peak brightness. HDR10 just goes up to DCI P3 and 4000 nits peak brightness.”

In fact, 10,000 nits is possible with both HDR10 and DV (per ST-2084). And although it is possible for DV to be either P3 or BT. 2020 in a BT. 2020 container and HDR10 “goes up to P3” in a 2020 container, as Kris and I were discussing on the last page, P3 has been commonly used and then converted to BT. 2020 in the mastering pipeline (hence the process developed by Netflix in the paper l linked).

Just in general, converting from a smaller color space to a larger color space can be performed very accurately. The less precise exercise is converting a larger color space to a smaller one because often something ends up being chopped off.

[DanBa]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Should document it as ‘HDMI 2.1 eARC’ as it is one of the features of 2.1(of which there are several).

Yep!



Another HDMI 2.1 feature:

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by DisplayCalNoob

HDR10 doesn't scale well. In fact, HDR10 content on future TVs will look worse as those TV sets improve and peak brightness and darkness levels get better and and colour reproduction improves — sort of like trying to watch standard definition content on a 4K set.

Is this true?

https://www.lifehacker.com.au/2017/0...now-about-hdr/

What a load of shit, and I'm not just saying that because Penton has already said so, albeit framed in a nicerer way. As he said, and what I've repeated over and over and over and over and over and over and over again whenever people talk nonsense about HDR10, is that DV and HDR10 use THE EXACT SAME ELECTRO OPTIC TRANSFER FUNCTION, namely Perceptual Quantiser (PQ). This EOTF is based around a 10,000-nit volume in the 2020 space and has been from day one, you can actually find a 0-10,000-nit test ramp and full 2020 RGBYCM windows encoded in HDR10 on any of Sony's UHDs, as has been the case since early 2016 when people were first writing all this nonsense about HDR10. Sheesh, these discs are literally mastered in 2020 space with the native gamut of the content mapped into it, how could that not handle full 2020 in the future?

The complete opposite is true regarding the longevity of these HDR10 discs, some have been mastered with 4000-nit highlights (and even beyond, if the MaxCLL is to be believed) and seeing as we still have TVs that are nowhere near capable of that amount of brightness the HDR will only get better resolved as time goes on. Will some early encodes and grades not look so hot from a purely aesthetic standpoint in the years to come? Sure, but that's been true of all formats.

Alas, the problem with HDR10 is not so much the mastering, grading, authoring etc etc etc but the playback at the consumer end, i.e. the content is being put onto disc with the best of intentions but the wild wild west of HDR tone mapping has turned it into a crapshoot 'cause you never know what you gonna get. But having a TV that did 4000 nits peak and full P3 coverage would virtually negate any need for tone mapping on the vast majority of titles released thus far...

[LordoftheRings]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

You’re welcome.
Are you still in Vancouver or have you gone back to Montreal? I've got Montreal breaking thru my Brain today.

Right now I'm @ the beach in Victoria. Mom just called from Montreal, we might go to Banff.

Montreal is too hot @ this time of the year, and particularly this year.
The Rockies, between Banff and Jasper, are just fine.
Vancouver Island today, the beach, the breeze, the ocean, the killer whales, the gold eagles, the sailing ships, the women in summer clothing, ...all is perfect.
It's like paradise on Earth for a song.

[DisplayCalNoob]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

What a load of shit, and I'm not just saying that because Penton has already said so, albeit framed in a nicerer way. As he said, and what I've repeated over and over and over and over and over and over and over again whenever people talk nonsense about HDR10, is that DV and HDR10 use THE EXACT SAME ELECTRO OPTIC TRANSFER FUNCTION, namely Perceptual Quantiser (PQ). This EOTF is based around a 10,000-nit volume in the 2020 space and has been from day one, you can actually find a 0-10,000-nit test ramp and full 2020 RGBYCM windows encoded in HDR10 on any of Sony's UHDs, as has been the case since early 2016 when people were first writing all this nonsense about HDR10. Sheesh, these discs are literally mastered in 2020 space with the native gamut of the content mapped into it, how could that not handle full 2020 in the future?

The complete opposite is true regarding the longevity of these HDR10 discs, some have been mastered with 4000-nit highlights (and even beyond, if the MaxCLL is to be believed) and seeing as we still have TVs that are nowhere near capable of that amount of brightness the HDR will only get better resolved as time goes on. Will some early encodes and grades not look so hot from a purely aesthetic standpoint in the years to come? Sure, but that's been true of all formats.

Alas, the problem with HDR10 is not so much the mastering, grading, authoring etc etc etc but the playback at the consumer end, i.e. the content is being put onto disc with the best of intentions but the wild wild west of HDR tone mapping has turned it into a crapshoot 'cause you never know what you gonna get. But having a TV that did 4000 nits peak and full P3 coverage would virtually negate any need for tone mapping on the vast majority of titles released thus far...

Yeah, I pretty much new that the EOTF was shared end to end. That inaccuracy has been around threads and appearing articles for a while. The article is more than year old, but it would of nice to have seen it updated for accuracy.

The HDR10 not being scalable comment, is what I've been, trying to wrap my head around.

[Geoff D]

By "scaling" he just means "mapping", you're reading too much into it. Of course HDR10 can be "scaled", the problem, as ever, is that there's not a single formula or method for this process that the display manufacturers are using.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by LordoftheRings

Montreal is too hot @ this time of the year, and particularly this year.
The Rockies, between Banff and Jasper, are just fine.

a cooler time and place just a tad east of there ^ - http://www.drumhellermail.com/news/2...d-near-hoodoos

the film's title was changed from The Solutrean to this

[DanBa]

Apparently the factory calibration of the new Sony A9F & Z9F is a result of research efforts focused on display Mura correction:
https://www.google.fr/search?q=mura+...hrome&ie=UTF-8
https://www.google.fr/search?q=mura+...hrome&ie=UTF-8

"Despite the significant investment, the display industry still primarily relies on the use of human operators to perform the final test and inspection of displays. The operator performs visual inspections of each display for defects, and accepts or rejects the display based upon the operator's perceptions. Such inspection includes, for example, pixel-based defects and area-based defects. The quality of the resulting inspection is dependent on the individual operator which are subjective and prone to error."
https://patents.google.com/patent/US8049695
"The use of automatic Mura correction device can help the stable production by evolving its quality and improving yield."
http://olednet.com/en/cybernet-devel...-oled-display/




An OLED Mura correction:
http://olednet.com/en/cybernet-devel...-oled-display/





"OLED panel companies can easily apply the advanced function of Mura correction, and additionally, the use of automatic Mura correction device together which is FPiS™ series provided by Cybernet, can help the stable production by evolving its quality and improving yield. We thus are expecting that this will accelerate the product release in the market.”
The driver IC for OLED display including the newly developed function of Mura correction is scheduled for starting to distribute it from June, 2017 to the market."


A LCD Mura correction:
http://www.teksel.si/sites/2/files/f...%20PN-V551.pdf
https://patents.google.com/patent/US8049695



"A 3D ‘pixel to pixel’ Mura correction is performed at factory on production line using Sharp’s ‘UCCT’ software (Uniform Color Calibration Technology). Using the very accurate L*ab methodology, all chromatic, luminance and hue values are calculated to remove any Mura impurity from the entire display screen area achieving a consistent uniformity of the white point and of all colors across each display from screen edge to center, and between all displays across the entire video wall.
This advanced Mura correction process is eventually saved onto a unique combination of separate Look Up Tables (LUT) on board every PN-V551 display, (i.e. known as “hardware calibration”), permanently saving and applying all correction data to obtain a consistent and uniform color rendering across each display from screen edge to center, and between all displays across the entire video wall, regardless to any input signal the display is fed from."