HDR Discussion Thread

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

...younger nieces and nephews

Notice to UKers, perhaps especially to those fond of Kayla …




This budget conscious documentary might not have an HDR deliverable, but if you have young nephews/nieces who show an interest in becoming filmmakers….

https://vimeo.com/182460201



or nieces who simply enjoy inspiring stories, you might be interested in taking them to see this movie….

THE EAGLE HUNTRESS (2016) - Official HD Trailer - YouTube

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

...a Case Study presentation with pretty slides and flow charts of the Closing at an upcoming production seminar (EBU) or show (IBC)
http://digital-library.theiet.org/er....x-iet-live-01

If that ^ link doesn’t get readers thru, then try this…..http://digital-library.theiet.org/co.../ibc.2016.0002
and then download the pdf to the right.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

....the SEI payload Syntax for ST 2094-40 is already ready (courtesy of Li et al. - https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...i#post12440020

Continuing on from the last line above ^

[Penton-Man]

Prior to the quarterly standards meeting coming up at Disney in Burbank next week a note on dynamic metadata in general: once the final part of the ST 2094 document suite is complete (happening soon), there will be other new SMPTE projects on dynamic metadata.

Technology doesn’t stand still.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

At the time I'm typing this post, the ad hoc group report on HDR/WCG visual testing is not yet available for download purview by the public-at-large, so until then, I can inform readers that particular report summarizes the activities that took place between the prior to (and partly at) the JCT-VC meeting in Chengdu

As to the later, with participation from ~ 10-15 expert observers on Oct. 19th, there was viewing of nearly 50 minutes of Netflix test material which was divided into 3 clips:

Meridian, 4K, 60fps (background info – https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...4#post12752084 )
Chimera, 4K, 60fps
Cosmo Laundromat, HD (2084x850, 24fps)

A large number of candidate 10 sec. sub clips were suggested. Further work is required to down select a reasonable number of test sequences. Thanks goes out to Netflix for supplying the test material and to Samsung for supplying the display upon which to view it.

follow-up on the short film Meridian from the perspective of the cinematographer in a recently published (Nov. 28) online article....http://www.videoedge.net/news/produc...-hfr-4k/364113

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

...once the final part of the ST 2094 document suite is complete

It’s been a long haul and not simple…

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

reference (diffuse as opposed to specular) white is not defined in MaxFALL and MaxCLL for the UHD Blu-ray format....Kind of an intellectual bummer/oversight when you consider the fact that diffuse white for SDR was standardized by SMPTE back in the day.

So, since diffuse white is not standardized, what is a ballpark figure for the MaxFALL in practice among some facilities when encoding HEVC for a file graded in PQ (SMPTE ST. 2084 HDR) using BT.2020 primaries on a BVM-X300 monitor….



A. 10 nits
B. 50 nits
C. 500 nits
D. 1000 nits
E. Other

*Note: for SDR content. diffuse white is standardized by SMPTE as 100 nits.

[Geoff D]

Hmm, the BD 3.0 white paper mentioned that MaxFALL should be no more than 400 nits but it's kinda obvious by now that different mastering houses march to the beat of their own HDR drums. Dunno.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

different mastering houses march to the beat of their own HDR drums.

Which is another reason why this tidbit is a good idea….. https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...t#post12925032

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

...Dunno.

When in doubt, choose E.

When mastering with a BVM-X300, as pictured in the workflow above, people are finding a ballpark figure of ~180 nits (MaxFALL) tends to yield a good HDR outcome for home deliverables.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Which is another reason why this tidbit is a good idea….. https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...t#post12925032

The ambient viewing environment SEI message persists until the end of the coded layer-wise video sequence. All ambient viewing environment SEI messages that apply to the same coded layer-wise video sequence shall have the same content.

[Penton-Man]

Follow-up to this past post from page 31, after member puddy mentioned 8K…..

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

In some respects ^, some center in the real world being more authentically cutting-edge than the entertainment world as depicted in the TV show Pure Genius….. http://www.imdb.com/title/tt5500906/).
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt5500906/...r/rm4179689728

This is the system configuration (the 4K LCD was in another room for monitoring)…

[DanBa]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Prior to the quarterly standards meeting coming up at Disney in Burbank next week a note on dynamic metadata in general: once the final part of the ST 2094 document suite is complete (happening soon), there will be other new SMPTE projects on dynamic metadata.

Technology doesn’t stand still.

"Lars Borg, principal scientist in Adobe’s Digital Video and Audio Engineering Group and Chair of one important SMPTE workgroup in this arena, states that this won’t be the end of the story—there will eventually be other SMPTE projects on dynamic metadata. Preliminary work is already being launched in areas he is not yet at liberty to detail beyond the fact that they will deal with "other parts of the infrastructure where you need to adopt dynamic metadata. It is more about adopting principles and details for carrying dynamic metadata in other areas besides MXF" he adds"
[SMPTE Newswatch - November 2016]

I am wondering what are the other parts of the infrastructure mentioned.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by DanBa

....I am wondering what are the other parts of the infrastructure mentioned.

I’m not allowed to address that. I already pushed the limit of disclosure just by posting the pic in post #746 above. Dan, keep us up to date with AV1 (significantly superior to VP9?). HEVC has a good head start, but we’ve always got to keep an eye on the up and coming contenders.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by DanBa

Lars Borg,

Don’t forget to register for the webcast.

[DanBa]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Don’t forget to register for the webcast.

Why dynamic metadata matters

"Dynamic metadata is a new concept because it is something we didn’t need to worry about in the past," Lars Borg, principal scientist in Adobe’s Digital Video and Audio Engineering Group and Chair of one important SMPTE workgroup in this arena, explains.


"If you think about regular HDTV in the past and what we call the color volume—what colors could be applied [to content], the chromacity, the brightness—that color volume for media was the same as the color volume for the display. The display could show any color [present] in the media, and the media could carry any color that could be [visible] on a display.
There was a one-to-one mapping between the media encoding and the display, but that is no longer the case in the world of ultra-high-definition.


With [BT.2020] wide color gamut, the BT.2020 media container can carry more saturated colors than can be displayed on the current set of wide color gamut displays. Current wide color displays can show colors up to the P3 color gamut, but that is still smaller than BT.2020 color gamut. So the media container is bigger than the display color volume, and if you add HDR to that, it is even more.
For example, take the HDR-10 format or [Dolby Vision’s] PQ Curve, which go up to 10,000 nits and deep brightness. There are no [consumer] user displays available that go to 10,000 nits. The brightest displays will do between 1,000 and 2,000 at peak. Again, you have media containers with a brightness range that exceeds the capability of a display.


This is a new problem—we never had before. We are talking about a media container that can probably hold 10 to 30 times more colors than can be represented on the screen. Thus, we had to figure how to apply some methods—a way to do some processing to reduce them to fit the media color volume of each display.

Dynamic metadata says ‘I’m not even using the full range of the mastering display.’ Instead, for this clip, map these colors onto the target display, and do it this way. When you are trying to put a big plug through a small hole, you need to know exactly what part of the big plug to preserve and what part to shave off." Borg states dynamic metadata determines what parts do not need to be used from the original mastering image, while still making sure the image produced is a good rendering of the original. "It is how we optimize the preservation of the created intent from the master onto the target display," he says.


Borg emphasizes that the consumer television industry remains, for the time being, locked in something of a hybrid universe, in which systems that support one kind of a format or another, but not all, are rolling out first to consumers. Therefore, the business logic of trying to manufacture and sell interoperable televisions to consumers right now remains suspect.

"Today, for example, we have TV’s that support HDR-10, and TV’s that support Dolby Vision available in the marketplace," he says. "We can expect there will be TV’s that support dynamic metadata as defined by SMPTE, and when they arrive, that will be an advantage for streaming content. That capability could be leveraged, as could the ability to show packaged media."


Borg will be leading a SMPTE Webcast on 12 January 17 that will discuss the SMPTE ST 2094 Dynamic Metadata standard. You can register for that session here.
https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...t#post12901886








http://www.dvinfo.net/article/misc/s...014-day-4.html

[Richard Paul]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Although I doubt the info mentioned in my last post is included in any of the documents listed here – https://www.itscj.ipsj.or.jp/sc29/29w4vote1.htm , at times, ISO/IEC can be pretty open too (unlocked padlocks).

CTA, ISO/IEC, and SMPTE are not secretive like HDMI and they do publically release information but they also charge hundreds of dollars per document. Even today getting the entire MPEG-1 standard would cost someone over $500.

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

If you and others are fond of that solution for usage with regards to its intended purpose, one question is when will it be considered in scope and submitted to the JCT-VC (http://www.itu.int/en/ITU-T/studygro.../16/jctvc.aspx), because the SEI payload Syntax for ST 2094-40 is already ready (courtesy of Li et al. - https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...i#post12440020

Since they can deliver dynamic metadata using a private SEI message would there be some benefit in adding it to the HEVC specification?

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Prior to the quarterly standards meeting coming up at Disney in Burbank next week a note on dynamic metadata in general: once the final part of the ST 2094 document suite is complete (happening soon), there will be other new SMPTE projects on dynamic metadata.

Technology doesn’t stand still.

I would guess that would include professional interfaces and professional workflows (ACES and IMF).

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by DanBa

...http://www.dvinfo.net/article/misc/s...014-day-4.html

For those who have the resources and desire to truly be at the forefront of entertainment technology, reminder, the 2017 HPA Tech Retreat, early registration (save money by registering early !) is thru Dec. 17. Over the years this *versatile tech retreat has had premiere speakers, for example, Josh P….https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...h#post10417134

For those unfamiliar, and although this Intro lecture was presented at Siggraph 2016 with his colleague, Tania (https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...h#post12240464), this is an example as to their quality (~ 8 MB download on HDR content creation)…..http://taniapouli.me/wp-content/uplo...ggraph2016.pdf

*Plus, the HPA event hotel has been dog friendly , something which my family and I have taken full advantage of multiple times over the years at previous tech retreats…..https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...ez#post4164898

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Richard Paul

Since they can deliver dynamic metadata using a private SEI message would there be some benefit in adding it to the HEVC specification?

As a user, I would be fine with whichever solution yields widely accessible, quality product.

[bruceames]

Originally Posted by DanBa

Why dynamic metadata matters



With [BT.2020] wide color gamut, the BT.2020 media container can carry more saturated colors than can be displayed on the current set of wide color gamut displays. Current wide color displays can show colors up to the P3 color gamut, but that is still smaller than BT.2020 color gamut. So the media container is bigger than the display color volume, and if you add HDR to that, it is even more.
For example, take the HDR-10 format or [Dolby Vision’s] PQ Curve, which go up to 10,000 nits and deep brightness. There are no [consumer] user displays available that go to 10,000 nits. The brightest displays will do between 1,000 and 2,000 at peak. Again, you have media containers with a brightness range that exceeds the capability of a display.


This is a new problem—we never had before. We are talking about a media container that can probably hold 10 to 30 times more colors than can be represented on the screen. Thus, we had to figure how to apply some methods—a way to do some processing to reduce them to fit the media color volume of each display.

Dynamic metadata says ‘I’m not even using the full range of the mastering display.’ Instead, for this clip, map these colors onto the target display, and do it this way. When you are trying to put a big plug through a small hole, you need to know exactly what part of the big plug to preserve and what part to shave off." Borg states dynamic metadata determines what parts do not need to be used from the original mastering image, while still making sure the image produced is a good rendering of the original. "It is how we optimize the preservation of the created intent from the master onto the target display," he says.


Borg emphasizes that the consumer television industry remains, for the time being, locked in something of a hybrid universe, in which systems that support one kind of a format or another, but not all, are rolling out first to consumers. Therefore, the business logic of trying to manufacture and sell interoperable televisions to consumers right now remains suspect.

"Today, for example, we have TV’s that support HDR-10, and TV’s that support Dolby Vision available in the marketplace," he says. "We can expect there will be TV’s that support dynamic metadata as defined by SMPTE, and when they arrive, that will be an advantage for streaming content. That capability could be leveraged, as could the ability to show packaged media."

All this emphasis on container size but what really matters is whether the display will meet the metadata requirements within that container.