HDR Discussion Thread

[Geoff D]

No worries, and don't be too concerned about the "embarassment" of losing to Palace as even Man City have suffered that fate this season.

Liverpool won 2-0 against a spirited Cardiff side.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

No worries, and don't be too concerned about the "embarassment" of losing to Palace as even Man City have suffered that fate this season.

Liverpool won 2-0 against a spirited Cardiff side.

good to know all the above ^

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Staying Salty

How does this tie in with the original "Top Gun"

how does the IP on the sign from last October - https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...n#post15658401

tie in with original “Top Gun”?

[Penton-Man]

^ If nobody gets it, then tomorrow I’ll post a frame from the original movie with the answer, meanwhile Salty think of the scene with Maverick going to splash those 3 Migs

[mrtickleuk]

Originally Posted by mrtickleuk

But isn't it the case that the only way to get 12bits, is to use a "Full Enhancement Layer", which is now being strongly discouraged*? Now that we have the "Low Latency-only" dolby vision capable devices?

https://www.dolby.com/us/en/technolo...les-levels.pdf
"The MEL can be used to minimize the processing requirements for the enhancement layer and thus ensure broader use among UltraHD Blu-ray SoCs."

Even dolby don't want people to use a FEL, it seems.

Hope people don't mind if I bump this... with the discussion about the dolby vision's FEL "rescuing" some discs and improving the baser layer, surely this benefit is all going to end when everything switches to only ever using a MEL on disc?

No more FEL = no more 12-bit dolby vision, correct?

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

how does the IP on the sign from last October - https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...n#post15658401

tie in with original “Top Gun”?

Because Mav and Goose did that flying upside down trick in the first film?

Geez I crack myself up.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by mrtickleuk

Hope people don't mind if I bump this... with the discussion about the dolby vision's FEL "rescuing" some discs and improving the baser layer, surely this benefit is all going to end when everything switches to only ever using a MEL on disc?

No more FEL = no more 12-bit dolby vision, correct?

You seem very certain this is going to happen but the heck of it is that Warners have started adding bigger enhancement layers to their DV discs, not the chunky monkey ELs that Paramount or StudioCanal use but certainly more data than the metadata-only tracks they've been using up until now. There are no signs of Universal or Lionsgate reigning in their ELs either.

As an aside: it tickles me that so much onus is placed on DV's 12-bit prowess when it's NEVER actually encoded as such into the bitstream itself, it's carried using a 10-bit stream(s) at most and is reconstructed after the fact in the DV decoder. So even though the BDA didn't think that 12-bit decoding silicon would be ready in time, hence opting for 10-bit as Penton explained, it clearly wasn't just them who were concerned about such things as Dolby have designed their entire "12 bit" DV transport system for the home around 10-bit streams as well, even 8-bit if necessary, albeit laden with their own special sauce like the ELs, like storing the metadata in the least significant bit (LSB) of the image etc.

What do the resident Actual Experts™ think of the whole '12-bit from MEL' thing? Penton mentioned before that streaming versions are specially "shaped" prior to encoding into a single 10-bit transport and are then reconstituted at the other end, as DV is output from the decoders as 12-bit 4:2:2 no matter what IIRC, so one presumes that MEL disc encodes are very similar. Dvdmike has thrown it about that there will be more Dolby tweaks in future, so will an actual 12-bit encoded transport stream be forthcoming? Would it even make a difference compared to these current DV delivery systems? What say you, tech gurus?

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Because Mav and Goose did that flying upside down trick in the first film?

Geez I crack myself up.

Given Staying Salty’s recent theme regarding detail and markings, I was actually thinking more in terms of the scene showing the markings on the back of this flight crewman’s cranial helmet -



just as Mav took off to help Iceman and splash those 3 Migs, but your reading as to the to set sign commemorating the aerial hand signal ‘communicating’ with a bad actor while inverted -



also works quite well too, especially relevant these days with the newest generation of adversaries invading our space in their sneakier way - https://www.justice.gov/file/1080281/download

[Staying Salty]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Because Mav and Goose did that flying upside down trick in the first film?

Geez I crack myself up.

I did witness this one day, as a Navy plane flew low and upside down over a destroyer.

We were later told that the captain of the ship radioed the pilot “What the %6@##”. The pilot radioed back “I’m drunk”. The ship captain replied “Identify yourself”, to which the pilot replied “ I am not that drunk”.

[imsounoriginal]

Not sure if this is really news, but anyway:

The HDR Format War Just Got Even More Messy

The latest brain bender for AV fans began a couple of weeks ago with the unexpected announcement that Universal Pictures Home Entertainment was going to start supporting the relatively new HDR10+ “dynamic” HDR format for its home video releases. This adds extra scene by scene picture information to the standard HDR10 stream, which HDR10+-compatible TVs can use to deliver better HDR pictures.

Previously, though, Universal had been one of the strongest supporters of the rival Dolby Vision dynamic HDR platform. In fact, the studio released the very first Dolby Vision-encoded 4K Blu-rays in the shape of the first two Despicable Me films.

On the back of all this, I asked Universal to clarify its HDR situation going forward, and initially got this short and rather cryptic response: “You can expect Universal will release titles in Dolby Vision as well as in HDR10+ in the future.”

This raised more questions than it answered, of course. So I asked for more detail on a) what Glass appearing without Dolby Vision signified - if anything - about Universal’s future HDR plans and b) what exactly ’releasing titles in Dolby Vision as well as HDR10+’ actually meant.

On a), Universal added this: “We have no further insight to offer regarding Glass specifically.” On b), though, it had more to say: “Titles may be released with one [format] or the other or both or perhaps none. Determinations will be made on a title-by-title basis, driven by an assortment of business considerations.”

[LordoftheRings]

It is news ^ , it is recent, it is relevant, even if less so than Top Gun: Maverick.

* This on the other hand is no new news, it's a month old ...
• https://www.forbes.com/sites/johnarc.../#7769354b1b2b

Do you have the right TV, the right front projector, do you have what it takes?

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by imsounoriginal

Not sure if this is really news, but anyway:

The HDR Format War Just Got Even More Messy

Meh. Universal offer Atmos or DTS:X depending on where the wheel of audio fortune lands, I wouldn't expect it to be any different with HDR. They're still producing newer titles without dynamic metadata on disc e.g. Halloween as well as Glass (and the former came along before they committed to HDR10+ so Archer is shit out of luck with any conspiracy theories he might be cooking up) and the only connection I can fathom is that both are Blumhouse productions.

[imsounoriginal]

"...or perhaps none" lol

"Business considerations" is weird verbiage, Halloween and Glass were both mad profitable so if they're not worth a little extra love, I guess it's only the Jurassic/FF-types that are? Weird. Maybe it is on Blumhouse.

[mrtickleuk]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

You seem very certain this is going to happen but the heck of it is that Warners have started adding bigger enhancement layers to their DV discs, not the chunky monkey ELs that Paramount or StudioCanal use but certainly more data than the metadata-only tracks they've been using up until now. There are no signs of Universal or Lionsgate reigning in their ELs either.

Thankyou. That is great news!

I have just been very worried by Dolby's apparently stern warning to authors not to use a FEL any more, to "ensure broader use among UltraHD Blu-ray SoCs."

From a previous discussion, I took this use of MEL, and frowning upon a use of FEL, to enable Sony's "dolby vision lite" ("player-led" decoding) to work. Have I perhaps conflated two completely different things?

What I'd love to see is some kind of list of dolby vision discs, showing which ones only had a MEL, and which ones have a FEL, and if so how fat the FEL is.

As an aside: it tickles me that so much onus is placed on DV's 12-bit prowess when it's NEVER actually encoded as such into the bitstream itself, it's carried using a 10-bit stream(s) at most and is reconstructed after the fact in the DV decoder. So even though the BDA didn't think that 12-bit decoding silicon would be ready in time, hence opting for 10-bit as Penton explained, it clearly wasn't just them who were concerned about such things as Dolby have designed their entire "12 bit" DV transport system for the home around 10-bit streams as well, even 8-bit if necessary, albeit laden with their own special sauce like the ELs, like storing the metadata in the least significant bit (LSB) of the image etc.

What do the resident Actual Experts™ think of the whole '12-bit from MEL' thing? Penton mentioned before that streaming versions are specially "shaped" prior to encoding into a single 10-bit transport and are then reconstituted at the other end, as DV is output from the decoders as 12-bit 4:2:2 no matter what IIRC, so one presumes that MEL disc encodes are very similar. Dvdmike has thrown it about that there will be more Dolby tweaks in future, so will an actual 12-bit encoded transport stream be forthcoming? Would it even make a difference compared to these current DV delivery systems? What say you, tech gurus?

[lgans316]

This is a cold war between Samsung and Dolby.

IMO, UHD should feature DV if the movie had DV in its Cinematographic process. If not, the Studios decides which HDR format to use. We are probably going to lose about 5% max on overall picture quality benefits dynamic metadata brings and I am sure the casual crowd wouldn't worry about it but for AV enthusiast like myself, I prefer dynamic metadata treatment on UHDs.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by mrtickleuk

Thankyou. That is great news!

I have just been very worried by Dolby's apparently stern warning to authors not to use a FEL any more, to "ensure broader use among UltraHD Blu-ray SoCs."

From a previous discussion, I took this use of MEL, and frowning upon a use of FEL, to enable Sony's "dolby vision lite" ("player-led" decoding) to work. Have I perhaps conflated two completely different things?

What I'd love to see is some kind of list of dolby vision discs, showing which ones only had a MEL, and which ones have a FEL, and if so how fat the FEL is.

People post the Bdinfo scans of discs all the time in whatever thread, they show how big the DV layer is on any given film.

As for Sony's low-latency version, I suppose it's true that having an FEL could place more stress on the player's decoding silicon but as the Sony, Panasonic and OPPO players seem to be a-ok with managing full-fat DV enhancement layers AND handling the dynamic processing on behalf of the TV then it's a non-issue. You're reading an awful into that one little sentence from Dolby.

[Stacey Spears]

Originally Posted by mrtickleuk

I have just been very worried by Dolby's apparently stern warning to authors not to use a FEL any more, to "ensure broader use among UltraHD Blu-ray SoCs."

Dolby is not telling anyone not to use FEL. I worked with Dolby directly and they had no issue with me including FEL or MEL. MEL was first since the launch SDK did not include FEL support. That came in a later SDK.

If you are using an OPPO player, be sure to set it to TV-led mode. Don't use Auto or player-led. Auto currently uses player-led. My DV montage will show why. I really hope they can address the player-led issue. It impacts anyone with a Sony display. Sony really needs to support proper DV and not DV LL, which was never intended for movies.

[mrtickleuk]

Very interesting, thanks!
So iiui correctly, these are all discrete:

Mel or Fel;
Low latency mode or not;
TV-led or player-led decoding.

[DisplayCalNoob]

Originally Posted by Stacey Spears

Dolby is not telling anyone not to use FEL. I worked with Dolby directly and they had no issue with me including FEL or MEL. MEL was first since the launch SDK did not include FEL support. That came in a later SDK.

If you are using an OPPO player, be sure to set it to TV-led mode. Don't use Auto or player-led. Auto currently uses player-led. My DV montage will show why. I really hope they can address the player-led issue. It impacts anyone with a Sony display. Sony really needs to support proper DV and not DV LL, which was never intended for movies.

Are the enhancements directly tied to the dynamic nature of the metadata? To be able to have scene specific, highlight peaks, color saturation boost, increased shadow detail, enhanced detail, and other features.

Also, is the 12 bits necessary for some enhancements , while not for others?

[Stacey Spears]

Originally Posted by DisplayCalNoob

Are the enhancements directly tied to the dynamic nature of the metadata? To be able to have scene specific, highlight peaks, color saturation boost, increased shadow detail, enhanced detail, and other features.

Also, is the 12 bits necessary for some enhancements , while not for others?

There is a fade up from black at the start of my HDR montage. In player-led, you see banding as it fades up. In TV-led, no banding in either FEL or MEL. This is on the LG C8 and C9 models. You will see banding in the montage, but it is all caused by the display you are viewing it on. Some titles have had a lot of dither applied to hide banding in displays. We did not do that.

MEL includes all of the L1 and L2 metadata. L1 is the per shot analysis info. L2 is the trim pass. FEL adds the residual picture information or the difference between the decoded BL and the original source material.

L2 includes lift, gain, gamma, chroma weight, saturation and tone detail. For v4, L8 has lift, gain, gamma, chroma weight, saturation, tone detail, mid contrast bias, highlight clipping, and secondary trims (saturation and hue for RGBCMY)