HDR Discussion Thread

[FilmFreakosaurus]

Originally Posted by puddy77

The new Panasonic GH5 camera will have an option to record in a log format, which will be nice for people who want to master in HDR. But interestingly, it will also record directly to HLG. So I guess we will start seeing a some more HLG content on YouTube. This may be the start of a new trend. I wonder how many more cameras we will see with HLG support?

http://www.newsshooter.com/2017/01/0...-up-to-180fps/

At 12 stops (maybe) with the GH5, you're not going to get HDR contrast reproduction you can write home about.

Right now, on consumer and pro-sumer cameras it's mostly marketing speak, not real-world performance.

[Richard Paul]

Originally Posted by puddy77

The new Panasonic GH5 camera will have an option to record in a log format, which will be nice for people who want to master in HDR. But interestingly, it will also record directly to HLG. So I guess we will start seeing a some more HLG content on YouTube. This may be the start of a new trend. I wonder how many more cameras we will see with HLG support?

http://www.newsshooter.com/2017/01/0...-up-to-180fps/

I think that HLG will be seen in a few cameras this year and will be widely supported in a few years. PQ has a huge dynamic range (20 million to 1) but that also means a bigger noise problem. Noise isn't much of a problem when encoding 12-bit uncompressed video but becomes a major issue when encoding 10-bit compressed video.

[russdornisch]

With the news from Dolby that DV disks will also contain HDR10... would it be possible for UHD players to be software updated to read DV?

Just sucks that you would possibly need an entirely different player for DV and HDR10 but it won't matter what kind of disk you use.

[DJJez]

Originally Posted by russdornisch

With the news from Dolby that DV disks will also contain HDR10... would it be possible for UHD players to be software updated to read DV?

Just sucks that you would possibly need an entirely different player for DV and HDR10 but it won't matter what kind of disk you use.

nope. the tvs and players MUST have the dolby vision chip in them. it cannot be updated through firmware

buy an oppo 203 that can handle both or the upcoming LG or philips player that can handle both formats

[FilmFreakosaurus]

Originally Posted by russdornisch

With the news from Dolby that DV disks will also contain HDR10... would it be possible for UHD players to be software updated to read DV?

Just sucks that you would possibly need an entirely different player for DV and HDR10 but it won't matter what kind of disk you use.

As mentioned, you have to have a player with a DV chip and have a TV that is fully DV compliant. The two parts work together to create an HDR presentation tailored to your particular display model.

If your TV is 10 bit and the DV data is 12 bit on the disc, the player's DV chip also downconverts the data to 10 bits with high quality dithering.

[russdornisch]

Originally Posted by FilmFreakosaurus

As mentioned, you have to have a player with a DV chip and have a TV that is fully DV compliant. The two parts work together to create an HDR presentation tailored to your particular display model.

If your TV is 10 bit and the DV data is 12 bit on the disc, the player's DV chip also downconverts the data to 10 bits with high quality dithering.

Yea I have a Vizio that has DV and HDR10... just wish it were easier to update the players to work... oh well

[DJJez]

Originally Posted by russdornisch

Yea I have a Vizio that has DV and HDR10... just wish it were easier to update the players to work... oh well

time for a new player

[ray0414]

Phillips has a new Dolby Vision player for under $300

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by russdornisch

With the news from Dolby that DV disks will also contain HDR10... would it be possible for UHD players to be software updated to read DV?

Just sucks that you would possibly need an entirely different player for DV and HDR10 but it won't matter what kind of disk you use.

It's news to some...but not to all: https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...8#post11874478

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by DJJez

time for a new player

Best Buy's "Outdated World" Commercial - YouTube

I know people (engineers who are avid sports fans) who are holding out for TVs with 4K 120Hz SoCs.

[DanBa]

Originally Posted by FilmFreakosaurus

As mentioned, you have to have a player with a DV chip and have a TV that is fully DV compliant. The two parts work together to create an HDR presentation tailored to your particular display model.

If your TV is 10 bit and the DV data is 12 bit on the disc, the player's DV chip also downconverts the data to 10 bits with high quality dithering.

According to the CTO of Vizio, there is no specific Dolby Vision hardware chip, Dolby Vision is software.

"There is no DV chip... Dolby Vision is a format + processing/mapping SW."
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/166-lc...l#post43311322

The Dolby Vision functions of a Dolby Vision player are a 10-bit HEVC base layer decoder, a 10-bit HEVC enhancement layer decoder and a composer & metadata embedder.
The Dolby Vision functions of a Dolby Vision TV are the same plus a display management.



Display management is just "ST2094 adaptation for consistent visual" or "ST2094 dynamic metadata for" reference mastering display-to-consumer TV color volume transform.
http://danielbafr.free.fr/photos/hdrblocks.jpg

And according to the US20140050271 patent issued by Dolby, [base layer decoder, enhancement layer decoder, composer & metadata embedder] or "embodiments of the present invention may be implemented with a computer system".
http://www.google.ch/patents/US20140050271

Like HDR10, Dolby Vision can be implemented on a SoC (i.e. computer System-on-Chip): the SoC is a hardware & software computer system, and the SoC hardware is not specifically designed for Dolby Vision as well as for HDR10 or other HDR format.
However, a Dolby Vision capable SoC shall have enough processing power due to the "massive level of Dolby Vision processing". In particular, the HEVC decoding should be hardware accelerated.

Dolby Vision compatible demo game based on Amazon Lumberyard game engine running on standard Windows PC without any specific Dolby Vision chip > standard NVidia Titan X graphics card without any specific Dolby Vision chip >> HDMI >> Dolby Vision compatible Vizio R TV



https://twitter.com/nvidiageforce/st...40315099340800

Originally Posted by FilmFreakosaurus

If your TV is 10 bit and the DV data is 12 bit on the disc, the player's DV chip also downconverts the data to 10 bits with high quality dithering.

A Dolby Vision compliant UHD Blu-ray will output a "12-bit Dolby Vision" signal.
At the TV stage level, the 12-bit Dolby Vision video signal (i.e. EDR Video + EDR Metadata) is processed by a Dolby Vision Display Management software.
As the color volume (i.e. color gamut + luminance) of the 12-bit content exceeds the native color volume of a TV, the TV display manager has to reduce / adapt the content colors to fit the capabilty of the TV according to dynamic metadata instructions created at the mastering time when preserving creative artistic intent (i.e. Dolby proprietary "ST 2094 dynamic metadata adaptation for consistent visual").
http://www.blu-raydisc.com/assets/Do...per_150724.pdf

More details can be found at the following link:
https://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.p...postcount=1144

[Richard Paul]

I was a bit surprised by LG's HDR TV announcement that they would support Dolby Vision, HDR10, HLG, and ... Advanced HDR (which is the third name that Technicolor has used for their HDR format). Granted Technicolor is trying to make money but the last thing that was needed was another proprietary HDR format. Now that Advanced HDR has been released three years after Technicolor announced their competition with Dolby Vision we now have four HDR formats on the market. I think LG is the only company that supports Advanced HDR but I somewhat agree with this article that the growing number of HDR formats is getting a bit much.

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

I know people (engineers who are avid sports fans) who are holding out for TVs with 4K 120Hz SoCs.

I am kind of surprised that HDMI 2.1 included such a huge increase in the maximum bandwidth and I thought they would save it for the next version. It is great news for HFR fans since it could help HFR arrive a bit sooner. I am curious to see if 48 Gbps HDMI chips will be used in 2018 or if they end up going with some intermediate number such as 30 Gbps.

Originally Posted by DanBa

According to the CTO of Vizio, there is no specific Dolby Vision hardware chip, Dolby Vision is software.
...

While there is no chip that is labeled Dolby Vision it does require the SoC to have two video decoders and a reasonably powerful processor. That requires more hardware, certification from Dolby, and of course an additional royalty.

[Opips3]

Originally Posted by ray0414

Phillips has a new Dolby Vision player for under $300

Yeah...possible update firmware on UHD player to television has DV. Don't need a chips from DV player.

[puddy77]

Originally Posted by Richard Paul

I was a bit surprised by LG's HDR TV announcement that they would support Dolby Vision, HDR10, HLG, and ... Advanced HDR (which is the third name that Technicolor has used for their HDR format). Granted Technicolor is trying to make money but the last thing that was needed was another proprietary HDR format. Now that Advanced HDR has been released three years after Technicolor announced their competition with Dolby Vision we now have four HDR formats on the market. I think LG is the only company that supports Advanced HDR but I somewhat agree with this article that the growing number of HDR formats is getting a bit much.

Richard, just to be clear, Advanced HDR by Technicolor is ST.2094-30? When searching under that name, all I could find reference to was their Intelligent Tone Management, which seems to be an SDR to HDR upconversion tech. So I was assuming it was that SDR upconversion. But this is the actual metadata remapper based on SDR and HDR grades of the same content? Any idea who or what is using it? I would have assumed M-GO, but they sold that to Fandango(Now).

[DanBa]

Originally Posted by Richard Paul

While there is no chip that is labeled Dolby Vision it does require the SoC to have two video decoders and a reasonably powerful processor. That requires more hardware, certification from Dolby, and of course an additional royalty.

Universal HDR capable Amlogic S912 SoC: support of HDR10, Dolby Vision, HLG and 10-bit HEVC / VP9 Profile 2
http://www.cnx-software.com/tag/dolby-vision/



The multi-core Amlogic S912 SoC has only one HEVC video decoder located in the Video Engine AVE-10 core, and two logical Dolby Vision Base Layer Decoder & Dolby Vision Enhanced Layer Decoder located in the Video Output Unit core.

The Base Layer Decoder & the Enhanced Layer Decoder use the 10-bit HEVC decoding service provided by the 10-bit HEVC decoder of the Video Engine AVE-10.

"Video/Picture CODEC Amlogic Video Engine (AVE-10) with dedicated hardware decoders and encoders
Supports multiple “secured” video decoding sessions and simultaneous decoding and encoding Video/Picture Decoding
VP9-10 Profile-2 up to 4Kx2K@60fps
H.265 HEVC MP-10@L5.1 up to 4Kx2K@60fps
H.264 AVC HP@L5.1 up to 4Kx2K@30fps, H.264 MVC up to 1080p @60fps
MPEG-4 ASP@L5 up to 1080P@60fps (ISO-14496)
WMV/VC-1 SP/MP/AP up to 1080P@60fps
AVS-P16(AVS+) /AVS-P2 JiZhun Profile up to 1080P@60fps
MPEG-2 MP/HL up to 1080P@60fps (ISO-13818)
MPEG-1 MP/HL up to 1080P@60fps (ISO-11172)
RealVideo 8/9/10 up to 1080P@60fps
WebM up to VGA
MJPEG and JPEG unlimited pixel resolution decoding (ISO/IEC-10918)
Supports JPEG thumbnail, scaling, rotation and transition effects
Video/Picture Encoding
Independent JPEG and H.264 encoder with configurable performance/bit-rate
JPEG image encoding
H.264 video encoding up to 1080P@60fps with low latency

Video Post-Processing Engine – Dolby Vision, HDR10 and HLG HDR processing, motion adaptive 3D noise reduction filter, advanced motion adaptive edge enhancing de-interlacing engine, 3:2 pull-down support, deblocking filters, etc.."

"Amlogic Video Engine (AVE-10)" - VP9 / HEVC decoding part:

[DanBa]

Originally Posted by puddy77

Richard, just to be clear, Advanced HDR by Technicolor is ST.2094-30? When searching under that name, all I could find reference to was their Intelligent Tone Management, which seems to be an SDR to HDR upconversion tech. So I was assuming it was that SDR upconversion. But this is the actual metadata remapper based on SDR and HDR grades of the same content? Any idea who or what is using it? I would have assumed M-GO, but they sold that to Fandango(Now).

I'm trying to understand what is Advanced HDR by Technicolor that will be implemented on 2017 LG TV.

"Advanced HDR by Technicolor combines award-winning technologies: Technicolor HDR ITM and Technicolor HDR.
This unique system, based on Technicolor’s open HDR approach, delivers networks in real-time with a mix of HDR and SDR in a single stream. No matter the content’s HDR curve, it ensures the best viewing quality for every end-user on every device type Technicolor.
HDR ITM up-converts legacy content to HDR, while Technicolor HDR, the distribution solution, ensures that it’s distributed and accurately displayed simultaneously on both HDR and SDR screens providing a consistent viewing experience."
http://www.technicolor.com/en/who-we...s-big-ibc-2016

I am wondering if Technicolor HDR is ETSI SL-HDR1 with only (Technicolor) SMPTE ST 2094-30 dynamic metadata (and not with (Philips) SMPTE ST 2094-20 dynamic metadata).
http://www.etsi.org/deliver/etsi_ts/...33v010101p.pdf

"The HDR system specified in the present document addresses direct backwards compatibility i.e. it leverages SDR distribution networks and services already in place and that enables high quality HDR rendering on HDR-enabled CE devices including high quality SDR rendering on SDR CE devices.

Pre-processing
At the distribution stage, an incoming HDR signal is decomposed in an SDR signal and content-dependent dynamic metadata. This stage is called "HDR-to-SDR decomposition", "HDR decomposition" or simply "decomposition". The SDR signal is encoded with any distribution codec (e.g. HEVC or AVC as respectively specified in Annex A and Annex B) and carried throughout the existing SDR distribution network with accompanying metadata conveyed on a specific channel or embedded in an SDR bitstream. The dynamic metadata can for instance be carried in an SEI message when used in conjunction with an HEVC or AVC codec.

Post-processing
The post-processing stage is functionally the inverse of the pre-processing stage and is called "SDR-to-HDR reconstruction", "HDR reconstruction" or just "reconstruction". It occurs just after SDR bitstream decoding. The postprocessing takes as input an SDR video frame and associated dynamic metadata in order to reconstruct an HDR picture, as specified in clause 6, to be presented to the HDR compliant rendering device."



If it is the case, LG can implement the 1st SMPTE ST 2094-based Dynamic HDR on its 2017 TV with a "Dynamic HDR-oriented" HDMI 2.1, i.e. not with a "full 48 Gbps capable" HDMI 2.1.

"Moreover, the new HDMI 2.1 standard brings support for dynamic HDR metadata, enabling content makers to control levels of color, contrast and brightness on a frame-by-frame basis. The important part here is that dynamic HDR will not require the new 48G cable to handle video in up to 4Kp60 resolution and thus manufacturers may add support for dynamic HDR even using a firmware update."
http://www.anandtech.com/show/11003/...0-48gbps-cable

[Robert Zohn]

Not sure if this helps, but all of LG's 2017 OLED and Super UHD LCD/LED TVs will have a dedicated "Technicolor" mode. So in addition to ISF Expert Day and ISF Expert Night and all of the other picture modes you can now select the "Technicolor" mode.

The new "technicolor" mode will work for FHD/SDR and UHD/HDR.

[puddy77]

Originally Posted by DanBa

I'm trying to understand what is Advanced HDR by Technicolor that will be implemented on 2017 LG TV.

"Advanced HDR by Technicolor combines award-winning technologies: Technicolor HDR ITM and Technicolor HDR.
This unique system, based on Technicolor’s open HDR approach, delivers networks in real-time with a mix of HDR and SDR in a single stream. No matter the content’s HDR curve, it ensures the best viewing quality for every end-user on every device type Technicolor.
HDR ITM up-converts legacy content to HDR, while Technicolor HDR, the distribution solution, ensures that it’s distributed and accurately displayed simultaneously on both HDR and SDR screens providing a consistent viewing experience."
http://www.technicolor.com/en/who-we...s-big-ibc-2016

I am wondering if Technicolor HDR is ETSI SL-HDR1 with only (Technicolor) SMPTE ST 2094-30 dynamic metadata (and not with (Philips) SMPTE ST 2094-20 dynamic metadata).
http://www.etsi.org/deliver/etsi_ts/...33v010101p.pdf

If it is the case, LG can implement the 1st SMPTE ST 2094-based Dynamic HDR on its 2017 TV with a "Dynamic HDR-oriented" HDMI 2.1, i.e. not with a "full 48 Gbps capable" HDMI 2.1.

Dan,

Yes, I believe Advanced HDR is the renamed Technicolor HDR as Richard mentioned. But I also believe it is the combined version made with Philips: http://www.technicolor.com/en/who-we...n-technologies

This Technicolor presentation explicitly states that their HDR delivery system is a joint project with Philips and SDR compatible (page 6): http://www.ste-ca.org/images/STE_Pre..._Apil_2016.pdf

I'm not sure where that leaves the original dynamic metadata standards 2094-20 and 2094-30.

Since it is EOTF agnostic, it seems Technicolor is trying to establish it as a broadcast standard for cable, satellite, and possibly for ATSC 3.0: http://www.technicolor.com/en/who-we...s-broadcasters If so, it will probably end up in both displays and set top boxes.

Their Intelligent Tone Mapping is also used in conjunction with the delivery system on the production side to upconvert SDR signals to HDR: http://www.technicolor.com/en/who-we...-ott-providers So if this does take off, we would probably get a lot of fake HDR from TV.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Richard Paul

...I think LG is the only company that supports Advanced HDR but I somewhat agree with this article that the growing number of HDR formats is getting a bit much.

Although late to the consumer marketplace as compared to other approaches, from an engineering standpoint, thee enviable thing though with the Technicolor ecosystem is that it is EOTF agnostic.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by puddy77

Since it is EOTF agnostic...

Yes, and that’s an enviable trait (being EOTF agnostic) for it can accept any content (e.g. SDR, HDR10, HDR HLG, even Sony’s S-Log3 production format) and distribute it to any type TV