HDR Discussion Thread

[gkolb]

Originally Posted by DanBa

"Phasing in Ultra High Definition
UHDTV is the higher resolution and otherwise improved extension of HDTV, for which DVB has developed consumer delivery formats for broadcast and broadband. It may eventually become the `normal` form of television. UHDTV was first specified in 2012 with the ITU-R Recommendation BT.2020. Its options included two levels of spatial resolution: 8 Megapixels (aka 4K) and 33 Megapixels (aka 8K), sometimes called respectively UHD-1 and UHD-2. DVB is currently focusing on UHD-1.



DVB UHD-1 Phase 1
DVB responded to its members’ demands, which initially were for a 4K system without other potential features such as High Dynamic Range, High Frame Rate, or Next Generation Audio. In 2014 DVB agreed the specification for DVB UHD-1 Phase 1, which was first used by DirecTV later in the year. DVB Members expressed the wish for additional features to be included in the next consumer delivery formats, to be available in later years, DVB UHD-1 Phase 2.

DVB UHD-1 Phase 2: adding HDR and HFR
DVB Members plan different timescales for the introduction of UHD-1 Phase 2 services. One group needs a system which includes High Dynamic Range (HDR) capability for services from 2017, and a second group needs a system that also includes High Frame Rate (HFR) for services from 2019. The DVB Phase 2 specification, enabling both, was agreed in 2016..."
https://twitter.com/DVB_Project/stat...95506883428352

Eh, the DVB UHD logo made me hope it was something to do with Dolby Vision. No such luck...

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

I was inspired by this commercial….”Born the Hard Way”, because although not of German descent, two of my brightest and most caring (to others) colleagues are Iranians (here on temporary visas). Anyway, given the type of realistic imagery (perhaps even worthy of inclusion into the JCTVC HDR Common Test Condition dataset used by Standards organizations for, among other things, to test display mapping), a colorist could do wonders (for instance, on the bright side, with the fire and sparks) producing an HDR version of this YouTube which has gone viral…..

Budweiser 2017 Super Bowl Commercial | “Born The Hard Way� - YouTube

Portions of the commercial reminded me a bit of the indoor scenes in the bar in the short film that Canon debuted at NAB 2015 that they were showing on their 2,000 nit prototype monitor, short film was Trick Shot linked in the below quote ->

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFAE...utu.be&t=2m21s

A colorist could do wonders.....

On the bright, as well as the darker imagery of that commercial above.
Because, for instance, in corroboration as to the value of HDR on the dark side, as Lars following that SMPTE webinar, commented recently on a ‘professional’ internet discussion group in reply to another….”HDR extends both ways, giving you more shadow details as well.”

Throwback Thursday post: Illustrative pics from the investigation into the importance of the dark end of the HDR spectrum from Dolby’s original submission to ITU-R WP 6C (http://www.itu.int/en/ITU-R/study-gr...s/default.aspx )
way back in 2012, which we subsequently discussed with members Kris Deering and others here on Blu-ray.com in 2015 when folks were becoming a bit more exposed to HDR…. https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...o#post11121678

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by gkolb

Eh, the DVB

One of dem DVBers (in the front row) can sing a little...https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...e#post13136408

[puddy77]

Originally Posted by DanBa

I am confused about the additional support for Dolby Vision.

Originally Posted by PeterTHX

Just making sure it can pass thru. Which isn't hard since the metadata is HDMI 1.4 compatible.

An update. I just saw this on Sound and Vision: http://www.soundandvision.com/conten...ion-compatible

Seems to clarify that firmware for supporting DV transmission.

Having said all that, when I ran your question by Dolby, here’s the answer I received: “Dolby Vision can technically be routed through any equipment starting at v1.4.b and above, however, the device needs to be aware of the kind of signal properties that differentiate Dolby Vision from a standard SDR signal. To this effect, we have issued a compatibility SDK that several manufacturers have already used to obtain pass-through compatibility on upcoming products. Compatibility on existing products is something that could possibly achieved as well, but is of course at the discretion of each manufacturer/OEM.”

[Richard Paul]

Originally Posted by DanBa

...
DVB UHD-1 Phase 2: adding HDR and HFR
DVB Members plan different timescales for the introduction of UHD-1 Phase 2 services. One group needs a system which includes High Dynamic Range (HDR) capability for services from 2017, and a second group needs a system that also includes High Frame Rate (HFR) for services from 2019. The DVB Phase 2 specification, enabling both, was agreed in 2016..."
https://twitter.com/DVB_Project/stat...95506883428352

ATSC 3.0 is not quite done yet but it is moving along as well.

http://www.broadcastingcable.com/new...rollout/163020

Originally Posted by puddy77

An update. I just saw this on Sound and Vision: http://www.soundandvision.com/conten...ion-compatible

Seems to clarify that firmware for supporting DV transmission.

That makes sense but is a bit of a shock since it is a lot different than what I have been hearing for the past year.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by puddy77

An update. I just saw this on Sound and Vision: http://www.soundandvision.com/conten...ion-compatible

Seems to clarify that firmware for supporting DV transmission.

Yes, just because it can "drill down" into HDMI 1.4 doesn't mean it's an automatic process, the relevant devices must still be able to recognise the DV data in order to actually pass it along the chain.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Richard Paul

ATSC 3.0 is not quite done yet but it is moving along as well.

Half day seminar on ATSC 3.0…..
http://www.hollywoodprofessionalasso...page_id=153011 <- much by Madeleine of UHD Forum Guidelines notoriety.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

1-29-2017

If they (HLG proponents) want to promote the worthiness of HLG as opposed to PQ, they had better become more proactive as Dolby is now vigorously competing for the live production market too, desiring to be the format of choice in that realm also.

When I was at IBC, Dolby had a demo in their booth of Dolby Vision and HLG next to each other running test footage from BT Sport and Sky attempting to prove that DV is as applicable to live television as it is to recorded content like movies.….

Dolby is now working their broadcast solution on the hobbyist sites, posted just 20 hours ago….
http://www.techradar.com/news/is-hlg...ily-says-dolby

[Richard Paul]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Dolby is now working their broadcast solution on the hobbyist sites, posted just 20 hours ago….
http://www.techradar.com/news/is-hlg...ily-says-dolby

Considering that HLG was added to both ATSC and DVB I think that Dolby felt the need to increase their marketing a bit more.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Richard Paul

Considering that HLG was added to both ATSC and DVB I think that Dolby felt the need to increase their marketing a bit more.

And, reading the last paragraph of that reporter's article, it seems like Dolby is really highlighting the *weakness* of HLG -> PQ transcoding, not that many will be going that route anyway. If anything, I foresee more of the PQ -> HLG transcoding possibly happening for Hollywood movies that are delivered to a broadcasters in PQ….and then converted to HLG for delivery as I said somewhere in a previous post around here.

Anyway, back to live, last fall, didn’t one of these media giants…. http://variety.com/2015/tv/global/la...ge-1201658545/ Mediapro? announce they’ll be broadcasting La Liga matches in HLG? Not sure if the people here in the U.S. recognize the significance of that, but soccer is big worldwide, esp. the El Clásico matches.

[DanBa]

Multiple audio formats! Format war? No, because like digital video formats, different digital audio formats are just implemented as different software within an Audio/Video Receiver (AVR).





"Whether you call it "immersive audio" or the more nebulous "object-based audio," there is a new type of surround sound coming to a home theater near you. It's designed to let you feel closer to the action than before with the help of height channels, which just like the name indicates, are speakers shooting sound upwards.
However, like most everything in the world of electronics, immersive audio is in the throes of a format war between the two competing standards: Dolby Atmos and DTS:X. Dolby Atmos is well-established and quickly becoming the "Kleenex" of immersive. But just like Android versus iPhone or PlayStation versus Xbox, the default choice isn't always the best one for everyone. DTS:X also has its benefits."
https://www.cnet.com/news/dts-x-the-...ive-explained/


Like Dolby Atmos, DTS:X or any other digital audio format can be implemented on a sufficiently powerful DSP (i.e. Digital Signal Processor, a specialized processor with its architecture optimized for the operational needs of digital signal processing, performing math more efficiently than a general purpose processor).



Let's take an example: the Cirrus Logic CS49844 DSP can be used to decode different audio formats within an AVR using a complete library of software.
https://www.cirrus.com/en/applicatio...tail/APP2.html




"Given that many receivers support both DTS:X and Dolby Atmos, it's not likely we'll get a "format war" scenario where we have to choose one format or the other. While some enthusiasts seek out discs based on which audio format it supports, most of us will just buy the movie we want to watch and listen to the default format."


Digital video formats and digital audio formats can be royalty-free or on fair, reasonable and non-discriminatory conditions (for example, Dolby Vision licensing fee: less than $3 per TV).


"Isn’t this just another format war? No; just as different audio formats like Dolby Atmos and DTS:X can be implemented within AVRs and other audio devices, so can various HDR formats coexist within displays and players. Thus, it doesn’t matter what HDR format a given program uses; a player and display that implements multiple formats can accommodate the content and display it to its best advantage."
http://www.avsforum.com/dolby-vision...h-at-ces-2017/


"This is not a new format war like Betamax vs. VHS or HD DVD vs. Blu-ray.
As a consumer you are not required to make a choice based on exclusivity. TVs can – and do – support more than one HDR format."
http://www.flatpanelshd.com/news.php...&id=1486110756

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

And, reading the last paragraph of that reporter's article, it seems like Dolby is really highlighting the *weakness* of HLG -> PQ transcoding, not that many will be going that route anyway. If anything, I foresee more of the PQ -> HLG transcoding possibly happening for Hollywood movies that are delivered to a broadcasters in PQ….and then converted to HLG for delivery as I said somewhere in a previous post around here.

^-
http://www.bbc.co.uk/rd/sites/50335f..._Transcode.pdf


Tweaking contrast in HLG -> PQ is a bit more labor intensive as you can run into issues with balancing the MaxFALL. Regardless, I still doubt if there will be much of a call for going that route.

[Penton-Man]

Given I’ve got the Netherlands on my mind this morning (https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...h#post13183473 ), Lang AG (https://www.iseurope.org/exhibitors/?permalink=lang-ag) will be showing HLG content on both an LED and through a 4K projector, next week at ISE 2017 (https://www.iseurope.org/) at RAI Amsterdam.

[Penton-Man]

^
I like/commend Australians too, e.g. http://smpte.com.au/2017/
Heck, somebody has to.

[zmarty]

Mr. Penton-Man, I dedicate this video to you.

I have published what I believe to be the first HDR technical analysis / review ... in HDR. You need YouTube HDR to view it properly, but the analysis itself should be useful even when viewing on an SDR screen.

In the video I am trying to provide some general information about HDR, and to determine if the Star Trek Beyond 4K Blu-Ray is as dark as some reviews complained. See the description below the video for more information.

Real 4K HDR: Star Trek Beyond HDR Review and general HDR information (Chromecast Ultra) - YouTube

[ray0414]

Originally Posted by zmarty

Mr. Penton-Man, I dedicate this video to you.

I have published the first HDR technical analysis/review ... in HDR. You need YouTube HDR to view it properly, but the analysis itself should be useful even when viewing on an SDR screen.

In the video I am trying to provide some general information about HDR, and to determine if the Star Trek Beyond 4K Blu-Ray is as dark as some reviews complained. See the description below the video for more information.

Real 4K HDR: Star Trek Beyond HDR Review and general HDR information (Chromecast Ultra) - YouTube

Did you make the Star Trek TNG HDR intro? that is one of my favorites.


BTW, i agreed that newest Star Trek was a little on the dark side, in particular the opening on the enterprise was a little dark, and i have a samsung KS9800 so it has plenty of brightness. I just thought the movie had a very poor HDR grade. It wasnt as vibrant or saturated as it could have been. Im gonna go watch this video though in a few minutes. I usually check every few days to see if you add any new HDR videos. Keep up the good work!

[zmarty]

Originally Posted by ray0414

Did you make the Star Trek TNG HDR intro? that is one of my favorites.

Yes, I did that one too, as an experiment!

I hope you like the new review.

[ray0414]

Originally Posted by zmarty

Yes, I did that one too, as an experiment!

I hope you like the new review.

while I have your attention, what changed with the new Meridian HDR video? the new one looks better and doesnt have the burnt faces.

[zmarty]

Originally Posted by ray0414

while I have your attention, what changed with the new Meridian HDR video? the new one looks better and doesnt have the burnt faces.

Here's the explanation I added to the video: "When Netflix Meridian was released under a Creative Commons license there were several articles in the press about it, seemingly citing from the same press release. All the articles mentioned that the video was released in HDR, and therefore Rec2020 color space. Working with this assumption we uploaded a version of Netflix Meridian where the colors had issues; for instance the skin tones looked very orange. After feedback from users on this channel and after analyzing the footage we have concluded that the video Netflix released is not in fact in Rec2020 color space, but more likely in Rec709. So this new version starts from this assumption. We hope you will agree that the results look much better. We hope Netflix will one day release the actual master file promised in the press, not a neutered version."

[ray0414]

Originally Posted by zmarty

Here's the explanation I added to the video: "When Netflix Meridian was released under a Creative Commons license there were several articles in the press about it, seemingly citing from the same press release. All the articles mentioned that the video was released in HDR, and therefore Rec2020 color space. Working with this assumption we uploaded a version of Netflix Meridian where the colors had issues; for instance the skin tones looked very orange. After feedback from users on this channel and after analyzing the footage we have concluded that the video Netflix released is not in fact in Rec2020 color space, but more likely in Rec709. So this new version starts from this assumption. We hope you will agree that the results look much better. We hope Netflix will one day release the actual master file promised in the press, not a neutered version."

Just watched your new video, I thought you did a great job confirming what most people noticed, that it was graded a little on the dark side, which people did not like. It just wasn't very dynamic looking and had a flat looking picture. I'm going to give the video a share!