HDR Discussion Thread

[Scottishguy]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

I ain't going anywhere. I extended the olive branch, literally apologising to Vincent, but the die is seemingly cast. I'm loving having EvilVincent here though, it really is like having a mirror universe equivalent of the mild-mannered guy we see in the videos.

Lol EvilVincent. A tad hyperbolic, don't you think? I'm going to assume Vincent's mother tongue is indeed Mandarin. It's difficult to try and not think in your first language, so the tone can come across completely differently. Hence the inclusion of "warmest regards" to put the tone in the correct context.

I don't know how many Chinese people you've interacted with. But my experiences with individuals from that background is that they don't take s*it, and are extremely direct. Especially the women lol

But better get used to it. China is going to dominate the world, not in a nasty evil way. It's just reclaiming it's natural position in the world, before Western civilisation knocked things out of balance for a couple of hundred years.

[zen007]

Originally Posted by Mierzwiak

I recently called Dolby Vision version of Marriage Story pointless because in terms of highlight details ot looks just as SDR version, BUT if that's what they wanted it to look like then I respect their decision. Creator's intent is always more important than my or anyone else's personal preference of having HDR grade that really has more range.

Good point but if the creator's intent is for HDR to look like SDR, why bother with HDR moniker? May just call it a 4k WCG upgrade

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Vincent Teoh

Objective data provides the foundation for many scientific standard/ advancements. D65 white point, Rec709/ Rec2020 coordinates, PQ curve, in fact anything related to colour science and standards should have objective measurements to back them up. We don't eyeball broadcast monitors and trust that they are accurate, we measure and calibrate them. We don't write subjective TV reviews full of flowery phrases; we measure, we test, we calibrate. Subjective impressions are important, but not without objective/ unbiased data as anchor.

To dismiss objective data and uphold subjective testing above all else is choosing to believe what you want to believe. It's cherry-picking.

That’s not fair as I believe that when I addressed this aspect, I did not “dismiss” your quantitative color map analysis. Rather I indicated that subjective testing, when available, is a superior method to “the anchor” in that it allows direct visualization of the content by observers (Geoff), rather than an indirect measure that doesn’t take into account the psycho-visual experience of the HVS.

And if you search my previous posts, I’ve often quoted objective metrics when applicable:
PQ (I imagine before any calibrator, journalist, etc. had ever heard of it, if you check the date of the reply) –
https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...ar#post9754213

even dabbling a bit in color mapped images, when applicable –
https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...g#post12849032

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

^
Which included deep dive visual testing in order to investigate better video conversion practices between BT.2100 PQ and BT.2100 HLG signal formats in order to retain identical appearance of content on matching monitors, despite the fundamental differences between the PQ and HLG input signals ->




Refinement is in progress . AFAIK, there were no functional tetrachromats (referenced below the cute YouTube clip here ->
https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...s#post12513184) in attendance, so everyone was playing (seeing) pretty much at the same level….vision-wise.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Scottishguy

Poor Geoff. Not even getting warm regards, let alone the warmest.

As long as he continues to be a utility pole aficionado as posted on exclusive pics of various Top Gun: Maverick locations, he’ll be a friend of mine.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Scottishguy

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BP1B...ature=youtu.be

Don’t get me started on Quentin’s portrayal of Bruce Lee in Once Upon a Time in Hollywood.

[Scottishguy]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Don’t get me started on Quentin’s portrayal of Bruce Lee in Once Upon a Time in Hollywood.

Did you know Mr Lee in your time?

[Vincent Teoh]

Originally Posted by PeterTHX

Certain studios, like Netflix, make Dolby Vision deliverables mandatory.

Which is why lately there has been an alarming increase of high-profile Netflix shows - The Irishman and Marriage Story pop to mind - whose Dolby Vision presentation offers little to no increase in dynamic range over the SDR version. Because studios are doing crude SDR-to-Dolby Vision conversions to fulfill Netflix's deliverable requirements.

Again, just because there's a Dolby Vision logo present, doesn't mean that the show has been graded in DV. To use an analogy on a hardware level, Sony 4K Blu-ray players force Dolby Vision on all types of content if you enable Dolby Vision playback in the settings menu, so even a DVD of True Lies will play in Dolby Vision with a shiny DV logo popping up on a compatible TV. It doesn't mean the source has been graded in Dolby Vision.

Originally Posted by Mierzwiak

It's all about artistic choice, just like basic color grading is. It's up to DP / director and colorist to decide, not Vincent Teoh or anyone else.

I recently called Dolby Vision version of Marriage Story pointless because in terms of highlight details ot looks just as SDR version, BUT if that's what they wanted it to look like then I respect their decision. Creator's intent is always more important than my or anyone else's personal preference of having HDR grade that really has more range.

Oh, we are not trying to decide the artistic choice. We're just calling it as it is... doesn't look like HDR to us, based not only upon subjective impressions, but also objective measurements and methodology. If you're going for an SDR look, why package and sell it as HDR? Isn't that misrepresentation/ fraud? Again HDR = High Dynamic Range.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by Scottishguy

Lol EvilVincent. A tad hyperbolic, don't you think? I'm going to assume Vincent's mother tongue is indeed Mandarin. It's difficult to try and not think in your first language, so the tone can come across completely differently. Hence the inclusion of "warmest regards" to put the tone in the correct context.

I don't know how many Chinese people you've interacted with. But my experiences with individuals from that background is that they don't take s*it, and are extremely direct. Especially the women lol

But better get used to it. China is going to dominate the world, not in a nasty evil way. It's just reclaiming it's natural position in the world, before Western civilisation knocked things out of balance for a couple of hundred years.

The smiley is there to indicate it's meant as a josh, but in any case I'm quite sure that Vincent's tone is coming across exactly as it's meant to here. And besides, my sister's dating a guy from Hong Kong so I'm keeping it in the family. Unless Vincent is from the mainland, in which case...

[Scottishguy]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

The smiley is there to indicate it's meant as a josh, but in any case I'm quite sure that Vincent's tone is coming across exactly as it's meant to here. And besides, my sister's dating a guy from Hong Kong so I'm keeping it in the family. Unless Vincent is from the mainland, in which case...

He's from Manchester

[PeterTHX]

Originally Posted by Vincent Teoh

Which is why lately there has been an alarming increase of high-profile Netflix shows - The Irishman and Marriage Story pop to mind - whose Dolby Vision presentation offers little to no increase in dynamic range over the SDR version. Because studios are doing crude SDR-to-Dolby Vision conversions to fulfill Netflix's deliverable requirements.

Again (though) colorists here and other places have said they grade in Dolby Vision and convert to SDR, not the other way around.

If you're going for an SDR look, why package and sell it as HDR? Isn't that misrepresentation/ fraud? Again HDR = High Dynamic Range.

Same reasons CDs had something like 100+dB of dynamic audio range but the actual range of the vast majority of releases was limited and even worse when the loudness wars began (as Geoff mentioned earlier).

HDR really means "not SDR".

Look at all the complaints about Disney mastering their Atmos tracks to 75dB - it exposed a LOT of equipment either not calibrated correctly or just not having the headroom to play back at actual proper reference level.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by Scottishguy

He's from Manchester

I wasn't just referring to where he lives

[Scottishguy]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

I wasn't just referring to where he lives

But you don't know if he was born in England or not

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by PeterTHX

Again (though) colorists here and other places have said they grade in Dolby Vision and convert to SDR, not the other way around.

Same reasons CDs had something like 100+dB of dynamic audio range but the actual range of the vast majority of releases was limited and even worse when the loudness wars began (as Geoff mentioned earlier).

HDR really means "not SDR".

Look at all the complaints about Disney mastering their Atmos tracks to 75dB - it exposed a LOT of equipment either not calibrated correctly or just not having the headroom to play back at actual proper reference level.

I find it interesting that Dolby referred to the tech as 'Extended Dynamic Range' for the longest time, and still do when it comes to the specific 108-nit theatrical DV grades. Perhaps if it was actually called EDR rather than the more bombastic - and certainly not fluffy - 'High Dynamic Range' then we'd have a broader church amongst the tech cognoscenti as to how "meaningful" it's perceived to be, even if it's not firing on all thrusters.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by Scottishguy

But you don't know if he was born in England or not

You've assumed that his "mother tongue" is Mandarin, I'm not the one who started making assumptions bruv. I thought you'd ken that with the 'mainland' comment, as much a reference to his lineage as hinted at by you as much as where his bills are sent, but clearly you're so caught up with white knighting for him you can't see past your own outrage at this juncture. Unless this is one of those times when you respond with "I was just joking!" and then we're all friends again?

[Scottishguy]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

You've assumed that his "mother tongue" is Mandarin, I'm not the one who started making assumptions bruv. I thought you'd ken that with the 'mainland' comment, as much a reference to his lineage as hinted at by you as much as where his bills are sent, but clearly you're so caught up with white knighting for him you can't see past your own outrage at this juncture. Unless this is one of those times when you respond with "I was just joking!" and then we're all friends again?

Outraged? I don't think I'm outraged. I think I need to take one of those heat maps to you right now

[Geoff D]

So what's the problem then?

[Scottishguy]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

So what's the problem then?

Nothing. Other than 1) You are not understanding me 2) You are being passive aggressive cause that 1% has shown up in the forums.

[Waboman]

Who knew fake HDR was such a volatile subject. Lol. One thing we can all agree on is HDR is crayons.

[Mierzwiak]

Originally Posted by Vincent Teoh

We're just calling it as it is... doesn't look like HDR to us, based not only upon subjective impressions, but also objective measurements and methodology.

I would love to know what those objective measurements and methodology would say about "Pacific Rim" UHD. It goes far beyond 2000 nits, but has no additional highlight information compared to SDR Blu-ray.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by Scottishguy

Nothing. Other than 1) You are not understanding me 2) You are being passive aggressive cause that 1% has shown up in the forums.

1) What did you mean then with the first rolleyes comment, or more to the point what did you think I meant that elicited that response? I hate them rolleyes smileys with a burning passion.

2) I thought you said I was in the one percent? Make your mind up. Or are you like Raczak in Starship Troopers, i.e. I'm your huckleberry until I'm dead or you find someone better?