HDR Discussion Thread

[Jay H.]

Originally Posted by dirtnoise1

How do you explain HDR simply and quickly to a casual?

Pie chart. Everybody loves a pie chart.

[BrownianMotion]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

The bolded is what amuses me though, BM. It's pretty much a case of 'Congratulations! You've discovered how HDR works! Have a lollipop' because, as I mentioned in a previous post, it would surprise people to learn how much highlight information is actually there in an SDR version of any given content. But we don't see it because the SDR EOTF does not permit it to be viewed when the tone curve is correctly followed, as SDR simply cannot resolve higher brightness and expanded highlight range at the same time.

If one takes the SDR and lowers the gain to tease out the highlight detail then even though the APL now matches the HDR the specular brightness sure as shit doesn't, which proves the point that SDR can't do both. It's all well and good altering the physical curve of SDR to underscore what's being said, but you're doing a Kobayashi Maru and changing the conditions of the test. I mean, you get points for initiative but you're not taking the test as it was meant to be taken and are thus missing the point of it.

[edit] Though the same could of course be said of people dismissing the science in the name of perceptual comparisons, like me for example. If only there was some kind of middle ground, eh? Nah, it's much more fun being an intractable hardass.

Yes, that's the benefit of HDR. Vincent wasn't railing against HDR. On the contrary, he constantly tells us how much he loves it. Even a "crude conversion" from SDR to HDR, as Vincent calls it, would offer some of the same benefits. That's his point. He's saying that his analysis, be it the heat map or the waveform analysis, makes him think these titles are nothing more than crude conversions, as opposed to scene by scene grading. I'm not entirely sold on that claim, and unless Disney or some insider comes out and tells us otherwise, we will never know for sure, but Vincent knows too much about display technology, SDR, HDR, etc., for me to completely dismiss his tests.

It doesn't keep me up at night, though, because I like how the titles in question look. I was one of the people gushing about the Star Wars films on launch day of Disney+, before Vincent came out and claimed they were "fake HDR."

[LordoftheRings]

We had the great privilege to have Vincent right here with us to learn from and ask intelligent questions for our knowledge education on all things HDR.
We know the rest of the story, ...on how it went down ... once upon a time in...HDR discussion thread ...

Five years from now (2025) he might come back and give us another chance on HDR education ...
Meanwhile this thread is approaching 5 million views; it will happen January 2020, 100% guaranteed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GO5F...ature=youtu.be

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by BrownianMotion

Yes, that's the benefit of HDR. Vincent wasn't railing against HDR. On the contrary, he constantly tells us how much he loves it. Even a "crude conversion" from SDR to HDR, as Vincent calls it, would offer some of the same benefits. That's his point. He's saying that his analysis, be it the heat map or the waveform analysis, makes him think these titles are nothing more than crude conversions, as opposed to scene by scene grading. I'm not entirely sold on that claim, and unless Disney or some insider comes out and tells us otherwise, we will never know for sure, but Vincent knows too much about display technology, SDR, HDR, etc., for me to completely dismiss his tests.

It doesn't keep me up at night, though, because I like how the titles in question look. I was one of the people gushing about the Star Wars films on launch day of Disney+, before Vincent came out and claimed they were "fake HDR."

I think that's part of the disconnect here, speaking purely for myself, as I'm not necessarily saying that it isn't "fake"; thinking about it, it's more that I'm just not as outraged by such a development as other folks are. I'd love to be, but when Mando looks as good as it does (to my fluffy eyes on my fluffy TV) then I don't give a shit. It's not that there is no worth to the science, but when the science begins to override the actual viewing experience - akin to the 'bitrate watchers', it's good for a quick glance but doesn't tell the full story - then I find myself wanting to take a step back.

People may well find that strange coming from me, that I'm renowned/loathed for being such an arrogant techhead who might as well be speaking in tongues for all the sense it makes to the lay person, but I'm as much about enjoying the artistry as I am the technicalities, and more to the point how each informs the other. With each successive home video format comes a new prism through which to view that artistry, which I'm usually very eager to experience, but I don't want or need x format to be maxed out for the sake of it in order to enjoy what it offers.

[schnauzit]

Hello, I'm new here and I'm desperately looking for: Avengers: Endgame 4K from Fanatic Selection? But don't find anything? Does anyone know where that is?
Best regards Thomas

[LordoftheRings]

☆ https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=321350

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by dirtnoise1

How do you explain HDR simply and quickly to a casual?

after Sally’s intros watch thru to the 3min35sec timestamp for the short and sweet –

SMPTE 2019: HDR and WCG Image Quality Assessment Using Color Difference Metrics - YouTube

for more advanced readers, as an aside and a follow-up on 11-11-2017 to Geoff's comment….https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...z#post14324053

Jaclyn discusses JzAzBz further on into the presentation here -> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-EgtHW4Su0Q#t=9m11s
with Anustup taking up the baton later on with showing which really is superior.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Jay H.

Pie chart. Everybody loves a pie chart.

As I like pie
(and beer as thee owner of this forum knows, but likely not nearly as much as Kavanaugh)

Originally Posted by LordoftheRings

Meanwhile this thread is approaching 5 million views;

#3 isn’t bad -
https://www.thewrap.com/birds-of-pre...d-movies-2020/

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

science,

I sometimes find ‘science’ on this forum to first pass thru a strong popularity filter by some readers rather that it being analyzed in an advanced, impartial fashion with no pre-filtering. No matter the facts of what one posts or the R&D leading to such explanations and/or use cases offered, there seems to be a *people hear what they want to hear and disregard the rest* element.

I’m interested in truth - https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...m#post17162251

as well as the science of many things, e.g.

How Good Really was Bruce Lee? | Real Sparring Analysis - YouTube

[LordoftheRings]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

#3 isn’t bad -
https://www.thewrap.com/birds-of-pre...d-movies-2020/

No Time To Die
Black Widow
Wonder Woman 1984
Top Gun: Maverick
Dune

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by BrownianMotion

I'm not entirely sold on that claim, and unless Disney or some insider comes out and tells us otherwise, we will never know for sure, but Vincent knows too much about display technology, SDR, HDR, etc., for me to completely dismiss his tests.

As I warned several days ago, don’t mess with Charles – https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...s#post17138826

See - https://mixinglight.com/color-tutori...rian-fake-hdr/

don't be so easily wooed by internet celebrities, I saw the same kind of thing with readers fawning over Joe Kane back in the day of HD DVD on AVS and even Bill Hunt with his chastisement of UHD Blu-ray before it launced.

[DanBa]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

As a sidebar, in busy post facilities grading and mastering movies stops for no one. When monitors need to be re-calibrated because they drift, or for whatever technical reason, calibrators do their thing when everyone else’s work is done….think after hours. I don't envy those guys at all.

How often it is necessary to calibrate a pro monitor in general?
Thanks


"DISPLAY DRIFT & AGEING
All displays drift over time, and ageing causes a loss of brightness and gamut that is not just drift related. These changes can happen a lot quicker than expected, and regular recalibration is the only way to maintain display accuracy.
Most display manufacturers are in agreement with this, and a recalibration schedule of at least once per month is recommended, with more regular calibration verification being performed. For those really serious about calibration accuracy a daily verification is often performed, although weekly is likely sufficient.
Regardless, regular calibration is a necessity, not an option, if display accuracy is to be maintained."
https://www.lightillusion.com/why_calibrate.html

[Mierzwiak]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

As I warned several days ago, don’t mess with Charles – https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...s#post17138826

See - https://mixinglight.com/color-tutori...rian-fake-hdr/

Exactly. They could've simply reach out to people involved with the series, but they chose to go for the clicks and drama about fake HDR!.

I respect Vincent Teoh as a TV reviewer, but what he's done is damaging and unprofessional. I also admit that, at first, I took their analysis as a fact, which was a mistake.

[mrtickleuk]

Originally Posted by Mierzwiak

I respect Vincent Teoh as a TV reviewer, but what he's done is damaging and unprofessional. I also admit that, at first, I took their analysis as a fact, which was a mistake.

Vincent is well known for updating a story if there are more developments. I'm sure he will with this one too.

[mrtickleuk]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Jaclyn discusses JzAzBz further on into the presentation here -> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-EgtHW4Su0Q#t=9m11s
with Anustup taking up the baton later on with showing which really is superior.

I watched that the other day, very interesting. I was struck by the pronunciation of "JzAzBz" using the American "Zee" instead of "Zed", and wondered whether that was chosen on purpose. Is JzAzBz easy peasy?

[zen007]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

See - https://mixinglight.com/color-tutori...rian-fake-hdr/

A nice podcast. As someone mentioned on it @ around 11, he had to watch Mandalorian in a dark environment to appreciate the HDR. He talked about having a cinematic viewing tag before the program begins. One issue is that not everyone is watching in the same environment.

As for "creative intent", while the creators have the license, the consumers have the license to rate the transfer too based on their preferred watching environment and taste.

[BrownianMotion]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

As I warned several days ago, don’t mess with Charles – https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...s#post17138826

See - https://mixinglight.com/color-tutori...rian-fake-hdr/

don't be so easily wooed by internet celebrities, I saw the same kind of thing with readers fawning over Joe Kane back in the day of HD DVD on AVS and even Bill Hunt with his chastisement of UHD Blu-ray before it launced.

I mean, I literally just said I wasn't sold on Vincent's claim. As I stated, I have no issue with low peak brightness content, and so I actually agree with what Charles says. As I also stated, I personally liked the look of the Star Wars films and Mandalorian.

One of the reasons I was leaning towards it being creative intent as opposed to "fake HDR," is the low peak brightness. If someone wanted to use "fake HDR" to override creative intent, I would imagine that they would do so to make content look brighter and more vibrant, and to override a more muted look that the creators intended. But it's good to have confirmation.

Having said that, I disagree with the use of the term "internet celebrity" here. When I think "internet celebrity," I think of guys like "Spare Change" or Brass Tax," who legitimately have no idea about any of this stuff. Vincent knows his stuff, more often than not, and is respected within the industry.

[Agent Kay]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

I watched about 5 min. of the 1st car chase scene (unless that was not the 1st but consisted of the whole movie), couldn’t take anymore and turned it off.

It was hard work and I like Bay.
Top gun trailer tomorrow tho

[JohnAV]

Originally Posted by MisterXDTV

OLED exist in 3 sizes so far, none smaller than 55 inches.....

Imminent demise what?

If I want a 43" OLED, i CAN'T BUY IT

How about 48”?

In June you had this article, LG's 48-inch OLEDs are coming in 2020

Embedded link in article wasn't working, see the link for Korean Newspaper the Elec for source

LG Display will be rolling out 48-inch OLED TVs in 2020, according to a top executive.

“It’s a strategy to solidify our footing in the high-end TV market, while continuing to have presence in the standard and premium segments,” Oh Chang-ho, the South Korean display-maker’s vice president of the TV business told the China Business News on May 24.

The remarks came on the sidelines of a recent press tour for the Chinese media at LG Display’s domestic OLED supply lines.

The new 48-inch OLED TV is to feature a 4K high definition resolution. This means picture quality will stay unchanged while the size goes down. In terms of pixel density also, the 48-inch TV is technologically more sophisticated than existing OLED TVs of 55-inchs and larger.

The pixels per inch – the measure for pixel density – for the 48-inch 4K OLED TV will be 91.8. A larger 55-inch TV with the same picture resolution has a lower PPI of 80.1, while the 65-inch has a 67.8 PPI, and the 77-inch a 57.2 PPI.

The higher the PPI, the smaller the thin-film-transistors controlling pixel surface and pixels, meaning more pixels are spread across the panel to make for better picture quality.

Ahn Seung-mo, LGD’s executive vice president for the Chinese TV business, said in an interview with China Electronic News Agency that such distinction is a part of the company’s sales strategy. The 77-inch and 65-inch TVs will also come in 4K, while the 88-inch comes in 8K.

출처 : THE ELEC, Korea Electronics Industry Media

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by DanBa

How often it is necessary to calibrate a pro monitor in general?
Thanks


"DISPLAY DRIFT & AGEING
All displays drift over time, and ageing causes a loss of brightness and gamut that is not just drift related. These changes can happen a lot quicker than expected, and regular recalibration is the only way to maintain display accuracy.
Most display manufacturers are in agreement with this, and a recalibration schedule of at least once per month is recommended, with more regular calibration verification being performed. For those really serious about calibration accuracy a daily verification is often performed, although weekly is likely sufficient.
Regardless, regular calibration is a necessity, not an option, if display accuracy is to be maintained."
https://www.lightillusion.com/why_calibrate.html

No problem with those recommendations, Dan, for even the most eagle-ist of eagle eyed become accustomed to small changes in drift without even realizing it due to the subconscious adaptability of our human visual system.

And from another S. Shaw - https://mailchi.mp/hpaonline/2020-hpa-tr-4

P.S.
As to the first paragraph, it's a good idea to keep good records of the cali's too.