HDR Discussion Thread

[Robert Zohn]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

If you prefer not to purchase this year, you can always wait a couple-several years for a



and enjoy the straight high road without fear of buyer’s remorse.

Good point, and we can also wait for 12-bit panels, 8k resolution, higher-peak luminance displays and even 100% of BT.2020 color?

We have a lot of good things to look forward to in the years to come. But I want to start enjoying the new UHD HDR TV system now, well the good news is that we are ready now to do just that.

[Geoff D]

Right, but I'm still not entirely convinced by HDR without dynamic mapping. Until a foolproof solution is in place (hah!) then I'm more inclined than ever to sit out this dance - as entertaining as it is - for at least another 18-24 months.

[Richard Paul]

Originally Posted by ray0414

It seems most tvs today can do 4k60, so I wonder if a 4k120 signal would down sample to 4k60?

The ATSC 3.0 video candidate standard has a section on HFR. To give a brief summary 120 fps HFR can be done in two different ways. 120 fps HFR can be encoded directly at 120 fps with a 120 second shutter interval for the best video quality. Or it can be encoded as two sub-layer video streams with the primary sub-layer at 60 fps with a simulated 60 fps second shutter interval using weighted frame averages which gives better compatibility with 60 Hz displays. Broadcasters will most likely consider compatibility to be more important at least for the first 10 years.

http://atsc.org/candidate-standard/a...tandard-video/

Originally Posted by Robert Zohn

Good point, and we can also wait for 12-bit panels, 8k resolution, higher-peak luminance displays and even 100% of BT.2020 color?

We have a lot of good things to look forward to in the years to come. But I want to start enjoying the new UHD HDR TV system now, well the good news is that we are ready now to do just that.

Generally I agree with the idea that something new is always on the horizon but even when ignoring the issue of dynamic metadata we now have four HDR formats. My guess is that in terms of long term survival that HDR10 is at 100%, HLG is at 100%, Dolby Vision is at 30%, and Technicolor HDR is at 2%. The HDR situation is getting clearer with each year but it still feels like a work in progress.

[Robert Zohn]

Thanks, my post was meant as 1/3 jest and 1/3 to list a few more UHD advancements on the horizon that are already in the UHD spec. and 1/3 to say let's enjoy life with the great HDR/WCG TVs that are available today and begin to see and enjoy TV content like never before.

I should have put the wink emoji

[ray0414]

Originally Posted by Robert Zohn

Good point, and we can also wait for 12-bit panels, 8k resolution, higher-peak luminance displays and even 100% of BT.2020 color?

We have a lot of good things to look forward to in the years to come. But I want to start enjoying the new UHD HDR TV system now, well the good news is that we are ready now to do just that.

Exactly my thoughts.


I wouldn't trade my ks9800 for any 1080p tv, including a Kuro etc. The vibrant colors and highlights are awesome and much more immersive than any sdr tv. I've enjoyed alot of great content on Netflix and amazon in HDR and have no regrets with most of my 70+ 4k blu rays. The blacks aren't perfect ( but good enough), but everything else is amazing.

Though I may upgrade in another year or 2 for a more perfected hdr tv, but I get to enjoy it now a 2nd Gen Sony oled sounds pretty nice next year.

[Penton-Man]

The demonstration at the Glasgow Science Center was probably the world’s first large scale public demo of HFR tv…..http://www.bbc.co.uk/rd/blog/2014-08...ave-a-100hz-tv

Although not pictured in that ^ BBC blog article by Manish, besides track and field, boxing (a theme of a future Ang Lee motion picture) was captured in HFR and subsequently used as a source sequence in a scientific test designed to determine the improvement in picture quality afforded by HFR over conventional frame rate capture and delivery…..

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by batman2000

should i get hdr or if i do i'll be left in the dust if there update to things with it etc.

If you are a hobbyist (watcher) and also desire to dabble a little in HDR content creation , but can’t afford the more professional BVM-X300, in case you missed it, as I mentioned way back last November in this thread, the Sony Z9D is quite versatile, i.e. tone mapping modes for watching HDR, whereas hard clip at 1000 nits (Custom mode) for creating HDR content, from last November….

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

(don't get) the impression that you absolutely require a Sony BVM-X300 (as pictured on the last page) in order to produce your work.

Yes, that is a fine tool if you have the access or the financial means to purchase such an expensive monitor, but there are reasonable alternative choices for getting some decent HDR material out to the public. For instance I’m informed that Sony has added a hard clip mode (at 1000 nits thus acting like the BVM-X300) to the Z9D (consumer TV), which is an excellent feature for content creators to take advantage of.

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

To be clear, as a supplemental user feature….to the traditional tone mapping mode that suits consumer viewing HDR content.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

captured in HFR and subsequently used as a source sequence in a scientific test designed to determine the improvement in picture quality afforded by HFR over conventional frame rate capture and delivery…..

So, all the various sporting native HFR test sequences ended up resulting in a substantial increase in QoE (quality of experience) as determined by study participants over that of 50Hz. Results being illustrated with the respective bar graphs….




Which leads to the question, which (type) imagery resulted in the highest QoE increase?

[Penton-Man]

Time up, I've got to get back to work.

Answer:
Those that involved a combination of the greatest camera motion (panning) as well as object motion.

[Penton-Man]

So, come the not too distant future, HFR and HDR hand-in-hand….
https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...w#post12906036

[Penton-Man]

So, why does Billy Lynn’s Long Halftime Walk not necessarily require the extra space of a triple layer 100 GB Ultra HD Blu-ray disc with ‘Billy’ being 60fps content as opposed to the more traditional 24 fps movies?

From nearly a year ago (https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...post12039664)….

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Well, the overhead in terms of distribution of HFR content when you do compression with HEVC is actually insignificant....

As an aside, wondering what now consumes most of the time of cutting edge compression developers?
Answer: best practices for encoding 360°, AR, & VR content.

[LordoftheRings]

Is 60fps supposed to make moving picture panning more fluid, more real, less foggy, more smooth, more more clear without flair, without strikes, without tails/trails (like from a comet)? ...More 'soap opera' grand?

Peter Jackson used 48fps for 'The Hobbit' trilogy. Did it make a positive impact with the Hollywood expert executive videophiles?

[Mr. Joshua]

Roll out of HDR blu-ray movies is so slow. Most of the movies available are horrible movies that are chic flicks or just horrible movies in general. Not much being released this month... Where's Disney with their HDR movies? How come VUDU doesn't have any Sony titles or any Lionsgate titles in HDR? I'm okay with streaming I love Dolby Vision on VUDU but every streaming outlet needs the same titles I don't want my movie collection spread over 3 or 4 streaming services. I've read Dolby Vision version of Pan on VUDU looks better than the HDR10 version on blu-ray...

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by LordoftheRings

Is 60fps supposed to make moving picture panning more fluid, more real, less foggy, more smooth, more more clear without flair, without strikes, without tails/trails (like from a comet)?

Be it camera motion (typical pan speeds being 5-10 deg/sec) and/or object motion (faster than a tortoise, etc.), 60fps alleviates some motion blur and jerkiness. 100+(plus) fps, even better…..200 fps, better than that.

Although a bit dated, here’s an HFR primer…..

High Frame Rates explained - YouTube

Originally Posted by LordoftheRings

...More 'soap opera' grand?

Wouldn’t know, never watched a soap opera. I do watch SNL though , because I find the timing excellent and the characterizations to be spot on….

Oval Office Cold Open - SNL - YouTube

Originally Posted by LordoftheRings

Peter Jackson used 48fps for 'The Hobbit' trilogy. Did it make a positive impact with the Hollywood expert executive videophiles?

I’d say some liked it and some didn’t. Except for the most open minded, or perhaps the next generation?, HFR has a hard row to hoe with cinematic content given general audiences having been preconditioned their whole lives to like or associate the 24fps look with theatrical motion pictures. Also, probably best not to think of HFR look equivalency with ‘Hobbit’ and ‘Billy’ because despite The Hobbit trilogy and Billy Lynn’s Long Halftime Walk both being ‘HFR’, 4K 120fps with a synthetic shutter post looks different (more immersive) if you saw the native format presentations in N.Y. or L.A. than does the 48fps/270 degree shutter angle combination that Peter J. utilized for his productions.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Mr. Joshua

Roll out of HDR blu-ray movies is so slow....

You creeped me out during the cigarette lighter scene in Lethal Weapon.

As compared to last year, over twice as many Ultra HD Blu-ray movies planned to be released this year from major Hollywood studios. Also in order to increase public awareness and thusly hope for a snow ball effect (more adoption drives the release of more titles), this year the BDA has planned sizzle reels and a consumer education brochure about Ultra HD Blu-ray for dealer use.

[Penton-Man]

Re: motion blur
Just finished watching the PSG v. Barcelona Champions League match before retiring for the evening. PSG was so dynamic that the motion blur was uncomfortable at times though not quite as bad as the simulation in Fig.1…http://www.sbjtvd.org.br/2010/anais/..._3d_system.pdf

[LordoftheRings]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

I’d say some liked it and some didn’t. Except for the most open minded, or perhaps the next generation?, HFR has a hard row to hoe with cinematic content given general audiences having been preconditioned their whole lives to like or associate the 24fps look with theatrical motion pictures. Also, probably best not to think of HFR look equivalency with ‘Hobbit’ and ‘Billy’ because despite The Hobbit trilogy and Billy Lynn’s Long Halftime Walk both being ‘HFR’, 4K 120fps with a synthetic shutter post looks different (more immersive) if you saw the native format presentations in N.Y. or L.A. than does the 48fps/270 degree shutter angle combination that Peter J. utilized for his productions.

♦ http://www.residentialsystems.com/blogentry/1332 → Ang Lee

[DanBa]

=> Active HDR with Dolby Vision:
"The W7 series and all LG 2017 OLED TVs feature Active HDR for displaying next-generation HDR content designed to render brighter scenes and greater shadow detail. Active HDR allows LG TVs to process the picture frame-by-frame, inserting dynamic data where needed. This technology allows the TV to offer the best possible picture even if the original HDR content contains static or no metadata at all."
http://www.prnewswire.com/news-relea...300385553.html




=> Interpretation:
Active HDR with Dolby Vision is aimed at enhancing the HDR10 rendering by using a SMPTE ST 2094-10 scene-by-scene color volume mapping or display adaptation.

. Display adaptation (or color volume mapping):
The display adaptation is a mapping process which aims at converting a video signal, created on a reference mastering display capable to display a large color volume (i.e. color gamut + luminance), to a video signal suitable to a TV with lesser color volume capabilities.






. Problem of HDR10: no standardized display adaptation
A display adaptation specification (such as SMPTE ST 2094 display adaptation for consistent visual) is missing in HDR10.



Each TV maker has to create and implement its proprietary HDR10 display adaptation, which can be more and less dumb or more and less smart.



http://www.dvinfo.net/article/show_r...014-day-5.html


. A typical HDR10 display adaptation exploiting the HDR10 static metadata:
As static metadata are used for the whole piece of content, the color volume mapping is based only on the brightest scene when making use of MaxCLL (Maximum Content Light Level).



The color volume mapping shall be more accurate if it can make use of scene-by-scene content information.



http://www.avsforum.com/forum/465-hi...l#post50016609

Another example:
https://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.p...6&postcount=68


. Active HDR: a SMPTE ST 2094-10 scene-by-scene display adaptation
Scene-by-scene content information is created on the fly by a HDR10 incoming video signal analysis process running on an Active HDR-compliant TV.

Maximum, mean, minimum light values of the incoming HDR10 video signal are computed in real time on a scene-by-scene basis. These SMPTE ST 2094-10 dynamic metadata allow more accurate color volume mapping processed by the Dolby Vision Display Management.







https://www.smpte.org/sites/default/...-Ecosystem.pdf

SMPTE ST 2094-10 is also aimed for use in broadcast TV system.
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/465-hi...l#post49795977

[zmarty]

There is quite a debate going on in the Arrival 4K thread about darkness, brightness, and artistic intent of the HDR disk, so I decided to create another review video:

Real 4K HDR: Arrival 4K Blu-Ray HDR Review (Chromecast Ultra) - YouTube

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by LordoftheRings

Motion Blur elimination; that is it! | With Highest Dynamic Range.

♦ http://www.residentialsystems.com/blogentry/1332 → Ang Lee

From ^ “Unfortunately, the film’s complex, unprecedentedly high frame rate created a problem for theaters, and projecting the film in its full resolution required installing costly new equipment. As such, only six theaters in the world were equipped to show it at 120 fps, with just two in the United States, the AMC Lincoln Square in New York, and The ArcLight Hollywood in Los Angeles.”

For the record, the plan as exclusively revealed on Blu-ray.com (last May), long before the mass media got the news.