HDR Discussion Thread

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by mrtickleuk

That was great, thanks so much! I did recognise the graphic at 1:18:00 !!!

I'm getting the impression that a great many of the improvements Dolby Vision offers, are for the toolset to make a nicer SDR grade automatically, or a nicer low-nit (600 nits) grade with some manual trims.

That's all well and good but I always struggle to explain why Dolby Vision is better than, say, HDR10+, when on two otherwise equal 1000nit displays. I can tell people that iCtCp is better, but their eyes glaze over. I can try to explain that 12bit is better than 10bit, but of course I'm being disingenuous: 12bit Dolby Vision is just no longer available via any streaming service in the world, and probably never will be now that Profile 4 +FEL is all but banned.

The only chance of consumers ever seeing 12bit Dolby Vision now and in the future is from discs, with their shrinking market share (which I lament greatly) and Dolby themselves trying to stop people using a FEL full enhancement layer even on Profile 7 ["The MEL can be used to minimize the processing requirements for the enhancement layer and thus ensure broader use among UltraHD Blu-ray SoCs." - Dolby's http://www.dolby.com/WorkArea/login.aspx?fromLnkPg=1 document, old version, that wording has been removed!]

So the future looks very bleak - instead of 12 bit Dolby Vision it's going to be just 10bit, after all the super-impressive technical wizardry to make 12 bit possible (2 streams because the HEVC hardware decoders are for 10bit) I know that Vincent Teoh has done a small number of side-by-side comparisons but my family really struggle to see subtle differences. It seems like a losing battle. If I'm missing a pithy simple explanation of why Dolby Vision is better on an existing high-nit HDR display now other than "ermmm, well it's just better innit!"), that I could repeat back, I'd love to hear it!

When was genuine 12-bit Dolby Vision ever available on streaming in the first place? The streams themselves are 10-bit and get uprated to 12-bit during the post-processing stage, they don't even have an FEL layer like some discs do. And discs don't use ITP for the chroma subsampling anyway.

[mrtickleuk]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

When was genuine 12-bit Dolby Vision ever available on streaming in the first place?

I don't think it was.

The streams themselves are 10-bit and get uprated to 12-bit during the post-processing stage, they don't even have an FEL layer like some discs do. And discs don't use ITP for the chroma subsampling anyway.

Yes, and I don't disagree.

So you might say (I wasn't around then so can only guess) that in the early days, we were told that Dolby vision supports 12bit and iCtCp and lots of bells and whistles which make it so much better than HDR10(+). I am trying to ask, in the light of what we know now*, how can I either explain in simple terms, or if not convince others of benefits.

* when you dig into the detail, it turns out that

• 12bit is only for discs, and - alarmingly - a smaller and smaller number of discs; it seems to be being actively discouraged by Dolby with their strong cautions against using a FEL for the future (or as some business-speakers like to say and I hate this phrase: "going forward" ugh).
• iCtCp is only for some streaming services, and unlikely to ever make it to discs now (that horse has long since bolted)

[Geoff D]

And I don't disagree with your points. We've not been sold a lemon with DV but, for all its bells and whistles that were parroted by all the tech sites (and which are probably still assumed to be the case, like the myth that "generic HDR10" can only go up to 1000 nits, ugh), its widest implementation on both disc and streaming is basically HDR10 with dynamic metadata on top. That's it. It doesn't do more nits or more colour or more bits or whatever the tech blog numpties think it does.

Streaming does have ITP, yes, but the drastic bitrate reduction for streaming will have its own knock-on effect on the integrity of the image. Hell, just try explaining to the average person what chroma subsampling actually is and you'll be met with a blank stare, never mind trying to explain how ITP is better than YCbCr.

While I don't doubt that some people really do see drastic improvements with DV versus HDR10 on their TVs, that's mostly on the TV being piss-poor for HDR10 tone mapping as well as poor image processing in general vs the Dolby processing engine, plus discrepancies between whatever settings they're using between the two viewing modes.

And although I thank the maker for FEL whenever it's helped to improve a terrible base layer encode, the simple fact is that the HDR10 layer should not have been that badly botched in the first place, with master compressionist David Mackenzie of the opinion that FEL may actually make it harder to do a proper BL encode, hence using MEL on the UHD of Don't Look Now.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by TJtennispro

Penton-Man...an escape.

ICYMI, about an hour’s worth of techno escapism including a spoon feed timestamp - https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...m#post17420949

Or, if this is more akin to your, or anyone else’s liking [confession: back in the day when this movie debuted and I was single and young, I had a bit of a crush on her] ->



and one really doesn’t require an HDR version to enjoy that ^ movie as it pairs well with one’s favorite alcoholic beverage…..or the weed, as the cannabis dispensaries in L.A. county I’m thinking will remain open during any unique situation, even a zombie apocalypse as those establishments are essential, eh Wabo?

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

master

flying under the radar is Paul Huynh
at Pixelogic locally - https://pixelogicmedia.com/

[Waboman]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

if this is more akin to your, or anyone else’s liking [confession: back in the day when this movie debuted and I was single and young, I had a bit of a crush on her] ->

[Show spoiler]

Mmm, Lacy Underall.

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

and one really doesn’t require an HDR version to enjoy that ^ movie as it pairs well with one’s favorite alcoholic beverage…..or the weed, as the cannabis dispensaries in L.A. county I’m thinking will remain open during any unique situation, even a zombie apocalypse as those establishments are essential, eh Wabo?

This is a hybrid. This is a cross, of Bluegrass, Kentucky Bluegrass, Featherbed Bent, and Northern California Sensemilia. The amazing stuff about this is, that you can play 36 holes on it in the afternoon, take it home and just get stoned to the bejeezus-belt that night on this stuff.

I'll leave you with this pearl of wisdom; A flute without holes, is not a flute. A donut without a hole, is a Danish.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Waboman

This is a hybrid. This is a cross, of Bluegrass, Kentucky Bluegrass, Featherbed Bent, and Northern California Sensemilia.

You know your movies.
“It’s a little harsh.”
https://hawaiicannabis.org/rememberi...at-followed-2/

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

flying under the radar is Paul Huynh
at Pixelogic locally - https://pixelogicmedia.com/

illustration of skills - https://www.linkedin.com/in/paulqhuynh/

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Waboman

This is a hybrid. This is a cross, of Bluegrass, Kentucky Bluegrass, Featherbed Bent, and Northern California Sensemilia. The amazing stuff about this is, that you can play 36 holes on it in the afternoon, take it home and just get stoned to the bejeezus-belt that night on this stuff.

audio video illustration - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pzl-faCih5c#t=1m34s
Cannonball it !

[Lee A Stewart]

In December 2019, China-based display maker Konka launched its tiled large micro-LED displays, under the APHAEA brand. The company demonstrated two such displays - a 118" 4K one that costs $240,000 and a 236" 8K one that costs $1.25 million.

[Robert Zohn]

Just got one of my favorite calls from LG. They have escalated our 1st allocation of 2020 LG OLED TVs and we have them on a special launch promotion. Here's the latest update:

List of LG's 2020 4K HDR OLED TVs that we have on promotion now.

CX Series:

OLED77CXPUA
77-inch class (76.7 inches diagonal) retail $4,999, Our price $4,497
Available Early May 2020 or sooner

OLED65CXPUA
65-inch class (64.5 inches diagonal) retail $2,799, Our price $2,497
Available week of 3/30

GX “Gallery” Series:

OLED77GXPUA
77-inch class (76.7 inches diagonal) retail $5,999, Our price $5,497
Available End of April 2020 or sooner

OLED65GXPUA
65-inch class (64.5 inches diagonal) retail $3,499, Our price $3,197
Available Early April 2020 or sooner

OLED55GXPUA
55-inch class (54.6 inches diagonal) retail $2,499, Our price $2,297
Available Early April 2020 or sooner

Nice image performance upgrades this year for LG OLED TVs!

[Lee A Stewart]

Sony Shipping 4K HDR Trimaster Monitors in July

https://ascmag.com/articles/sony-shi...nitors-in-july

[Lee A Stewart]

https://ascmag.com/articles/cinemascope-what-it-is

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by Lee A Stewart

https://ascmag.com/articles/cinemascope-what-it-is

You're a bit late with the CinemaScope news

[Lee A Stewart]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

You're a bit late with the CinemaScope news

Better late than never

[Geoff D]

Doesn't reallllllly relate to HDR tho

[Lee A Stewart]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Doesn't reallllllly relate to HDR tho

Ah . . . half the posts in this thread don't relate to HDR and you know it.

[Geoff D]

Yeah but we have enough people on a spamming mission in here without you filling it up with junk, keep that shit for the Coronavirus thread.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Lee A Stewart

https://ascmag.com/articles/cinemascope-what-it-is

Lee, and/or others who may be unfamiliar, their tweeter thing is a good cutting edge source for ACM news which occasionally has HDR-related links regarding mostly acquisition and touching a bit on finishing. Note that in one of the top posts they’re offering a complimentary read of the April 2020 issue.
https://twitter.com/AmericanCine?ref...Ctwgr%5Eauthor

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

HDR-related links regarding mostly acquisition

ARRI has made available two of its Master Classes to watch online for free. The first being a five-part series on HDR with cinematographer Karl Walter LindenLaub, whose work includes Independence Day, Stargate, and The Jackal -
https://www.mzed.com/courses/high-dy...lindenlaub-asc