HDR Discussion Thread

[Robert Zohn]

Originally Posted by PaulGo

I just watched the NAB Show Express portion on HDR broadcasts. It appears for the foreseeable future HDR live broadcasts will be limited to 1080p. From what was shown at the average viewing distance of nine feet from a 65" TV it is impossible to see 4K resolution however HDR makes a big impact (so 8K in a living room would not be beneficial at all). The reason for not using 4K for live sports is at 4K 60p there is increased motion blur. So broadcasters see no reason for 4K but viewers will benefit from HDR. Ultimately broadcasters may switch to HLG but for compatibility they will use HDR10.

Paul, that's my friend John Humphrey from Hitachi Kokusai. I worked at Hitachi Kokusai for 20+ years.

I was surprised to hear John say that and I'll call him tomorrow to explain why 60Hz at 4K would introduce more motion blur than FHD at 60Hz?

My understanding of why TV Broadcasters were not adopting to 4K was due to the large capital expense to purchase all 4K equipment, switching, cameras etc and the limitation of the 6Mhz bandwidth, which would require the 4K HDR signal to be compressed too much.

One interesting solution is that broadcasters are planing on is sharing their 6Mhz channels so if a broadcaster has some worthy programming they can borrow the other channels bandwidth and broadcast 4K HDR with 12Mhz. The loaning broadcaster would use the subcarrier bandwidth during the the time the 4K HDR is airing and they would keep track of who owes who for future dual channel 4K HDR broadcasting of special events.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by LordoftheRings

Inverted?

https://www.blu-ray.com/movies/scree...018&position=5

more daring maneuver in the bubble with Top Gun: Maverick –

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Robert Zohn

...why 60Hz at 4K would introduce more motion blur than FHD at 60Hz?

Experimentation by Fox Sports apparently determined fast action with camera movement, challenges detail, e.g.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_AL4D2tZJN4#t=1m40s
(something of which, for the last several years we here, or on other threads, have alerted folks to both factors, combined, will augment motion blur)

given that, from what I recall, only 5 cameras were 4K, as opposed to over 50 being 1080 cameras, and the 4K cameras were used to zoom into regions of interest on close calls

[Penton-Man]

follow-up to 8/3/2018 :

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

(Lost in Space was limited to 1,000 nits by Siggy at Co3).

reminder, free webinar on LiS begins in < 20 min. –
https://register.gotowebinar.com/reg...educate+Invite

[PaulGo]

Originally Posted by Robert Zohn

My understanding of why TV Broadcasters were not adopting to 4K was due to the large capital expense to purchase all 4K equipment, switching, cameras etc and the limitation of the 6Mhz bandwidth, which would require the 4K HDR signal to be compressed too much.

That may be one factor but the one that was highlighted was that the broadcasters felt there was no need for a higher resolution then 1080p since at normal viewing distances the viewer would not be able to see the finer detail. However, they felt HDR would greatly enhance the viewing experience.

[LordoftheRings]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

more daring maneuver in the bubble with Top Gun: Maverick –

Was this shot taken with a HDR camera; it's blurry.
And was it an actual real stunt or CGI fabricated?
If it's real we cannot tell the actual distance between the fighter jets from the viewer's (us) angle. It sure looks impressive...but still very blurry.

I'd like to see a moving video clip of that sequence. ...In slo-mo HDR.
The shot is @ 1:37 below in the newest trailer ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g4U4...ature=youtu.be

* Bonus (impressive to revisit):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sdo9...ature=youtu.be

** Extra (moment of truth - in the bubble) ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWCc...ature=youtu.be

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by LordoftheRings

Was this shot taken with a HDR camera; it's blurry.

well, you do realize dem jets are fast

Originally Posted by LordoftheRings

I'd like to see a moving video clip of that sequence. ...In slo-mo HDR.

wouldn’t help detail much, as object motion exceeded optimal frame rate acquistion, likewise for this –
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmsiTRUMFyg#t=5m35s

[LordoftheRings]

CGI

Wait a minute ...
• https://amp.cinemablend.com/news/249...ay-top-gun-day

[Lee A Stewart]

b<>com launches *Adaptive HDR Converter* at the NAB Show Express

b<>com *Adaptive HDR Converter* is a smart solution for converting SDR content into HDR format in real time, and vice versa, converting HDR to SDR. If you do convert in one direction and then the other (SDR to HDR and HDR to SDR), the resulting video is visually identical to the original. All while preserving artistic intent! HDR to SDR conversion is especially useful in situations where the same content must be simultaneously delivered in HDR and SDR format. The conversion process fits easily into existing products and requires no input metadata. It can be used at any stage in the production process. Finally, the solution also allows for conversions between different HDR formats (PQ/HLG/Slog3).

https://b-com.com/en/news/bcom-launc...-show-express#

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by LordoftheRings

CGI

a different perspective from a different former NAVY fighter pilot and Top Gun instructor, to boot -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=un_Rzje3LLY#t=57s

P.S.
b.t.w., Vincent’s ^ close friend and carrier-based fighter pilot, test pilot, and formerly of VX-31 shared a peripheral role in the motion picture (pictured day of the shoot, on location) –

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by LordoftheRings

it's blurry.

As an aside, with regards to any future 8K acquisition and presentation, I really don’t think DPs would be upset with some blurry in their motion pictures since they actually are frequently motivated to soften up their shots for artistic purposes, intentionally, rather than striving for a sharp, clinical look. Unless AI processing in the elite 8K TVs is superb, motion blur will be a whole different matter for enjoying, or not, fast action sports, even at 60fps with 8K, HDR podcast referencing a past demo….https://thevideoinsiders.simplecast....odes/episode40

Skip to 18:08 ^ for the concept and to avoid the mocking of TV manufacturers by the hosts earlier on in the podcast.

[LordoftheRings]

Penton, what if that jet going upwards (in the bubble) between two jets was a real stunt instead of CGI.

And what if Top Gun: Maverick would have been shot @ 120fps as an additional option @ both theaters and offered as an additional disc on the future 4K UHD Blu release. ...One 4K HDR disc @ 24fp, and the other 4K HDR disc @ 120fps* (plus of course the regular 1080p HD BR disc).
Make Maverick historic from the High Dynamic Range world we live in today.

* Or 60fps on the disc.

[LordoftheRings]

And, I'm waiting for Ultra HD 3D/8K. How long do I have to wait for? ...What Range roughly.

[FilmFreakosaurus]

Originally Posted by LordoftheRings

And, I'm waiting for Ultra HD 3D/8K. How long do I have to wait for? ...What Range roughly.

I would say a good long time now that theatrical distribution is on life support given the pandemic. 8k content and the added expenses associated with it for small screen consumer consumption will probably not be a top priority at this juncture.

[avs commenter]

Originally Posted by LordoftheRings

And, I'm waiting for Ultra HD 3D/8K. How long do I have to wait for? ...What Range roughly.

10 years

[mrtickleuk]

Originally Posted by avs commenter

10 years

I was going to say 25.

[Lee A Stewart]

The thrilling chariot race from 1959's BEN HUR and the crew and cameras that did all the filming in the new format MGM Camera 65 (65mm) which became Super Panavision 70.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by LordoftheRings

Penton, what if that jet going upwards (in the bubble) between two jets was a real stunt instead of CGI.

And what if Top Gun: Maverick would have been shot @ 120fps as an additional option @ both theaters and offered as an additional disc on the future 4K UHD Blu release. ...One 4K HDR disc @ 24fp, and the other 4K HDR disc @ 120fps* (plus of course the regular 1080p HD BR disc).
Make Maverick historic from the High Dynamic Range world we live in today.

what if the wet markets with wild animals and the consumption of wildlife meat was strictly forbidden all over the world (without loopholes) and we could concentrate on what’s circled on the front of the cap

[JohnAV]

Originally Posted by LordoftheRings

And, I'm waiting for Ultra HD 3D/8K. How long do I have to wait for? ...What Range roughly.

See Avatar 2: release date, first images and everything we know - TechRadar - 5/14/2020

Regarding 3D

Cinemagoers' interest has subsequently waned – a change Cameron has blamed on Hollywood's preference for converting 2D-shot movies into 3D in post-production, rather than using actual stereoscopic cameras.

2009 was a long time ago. Over a decade has passed since Avatar first hit cinema screens, and 3D has largely drifted into memory as a fad.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

...concentrate on what’s circled on the front of the cap

in Corona times, some of the guys who keep those Top Gun: Maverick fighter jets in shape –