HDR Discussion Thread

[Staying Salty]

Some interesting comments from AVSforum. Particularly HDR10 being able to do 4.2.2.

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/465-hi...l#post52777777

Tom Roper “My first comment, is that back in 2015 when I first started encoding HDR10, I was encoding 10 bit 4:2:2, and it was already compatible and playing just fine on Samsung SUHD televisions, but I stopped doing it and changed to 10 bit 4:2:0 when I got incompatible playability reports with some other brands.”

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/465-hi...l#post52789529

RLBURNSIDE “Interesting, but the enhancement layer is 4:2:2 at 1080p, so it's not the same as achieving 4:2:2 at 2160p. Although, it will certainly help. Plus, if they used some clever sample patterns they could fill in chroma detail gaps lost from the HDR10 base layer to increase detail further. So I don't doubt that 2160p 4:2:2 or even 4:4:4 output on Bluray players will start being useful. (previously I was all: why bother upscaling 4:2:0 to 4:2:2 or 4:4:4 in the player, then to RGB in the TV, just let the TV handle it all. But now, the DV layer on disc could theoretically be used to increase resolution, not just bit depth and dynamic range).”

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

....for brand balance and folks more interested in cutting edge displays, rather than planned motion picture cameras, reminds me, as a follow up to the topic of dual modulation panel architecture , for those who didn’t attend the NAB show, elaboration by a different manufacturer, namely TVLogic….https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rhX1tJ6T8y8#t=6m50s

Alternatively, someone grilling Rachel with regards to Eizo’s dual modulation offering…..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O74dHJZD31c#t=4m40s

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by Staying Salty

Some interesting comments from AVSforum. Particularly HDR10 being able to do 4.2.2.

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/465-hi...l#post52777777

Tom Roper “My first comment, is that back in 2015 when I first started encoding HDR10, I was encoding 10 bit 4:2:2, and it was already compatible and playing just fine on Samsung SUHD televisions, but I stopped doing it and changed to 10 bit 4:2:0 when I got incompatible playability reports with some other brands.”

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/465-hi...l#post52789529

RLBURNSIDE “Interesting, but the enhancement layer is 4:2:2 at 1080p, so it's not the same as achieving 4:2:2 at 2160p. Although, it will certainly help. Plus, if they used some clever sample patterns they could fill in chroma detail gaps lost from the HDR10 base layer to increase detail further. So I don't doubt that 2160p 4:2:2 or even 4:4:4 output on Bluray players will start being useful. (previously I was all: why bother upscaling 4:2:0 to 4:2:2 or 4:4:4 in the player, then to RGB in the TV, just let the TV handle it all. But now, the DV layer on disc could theoretically be used to increase resolution, not just bit depth and dynamic range).”

Why wouldn't HDR10 as a format be able to do 4:2:2 or 4:4:4? It's restricted to 4:2:0 as a specification on UHD Blu-ray owing to the demands of encoding for consumer media with a finite amount of space (ditto for DVD and regular Blu), but HEVC has a ton of profiles which cater for 10/12-bit 4:2:2 and 4:4:4 encoding.

And I'm glad to hear some more details on the 4:2:2 aspect of DV as I was always secretly sceptical of the claim that it was outright 4:2:2. That it applies to the 1920x1080 enhancement layer makes a lot more sense given what I've said about disc space and whatnot above (as well as linking indirectly to the HEVC profiles being able to handle 4:2:2/4:4:4 encoding, as the DV layer is also encoded with HEVC).

[Penton-Man]

Being the diehard football (soccer) fan I am, since childhood, while at CineGear yesterday I was informed by a colleague that BT Sport was tweeting or facebooking with no workflow details whatsoever about having presented live, the Champions League Final in HDR at Dolby’s screening room in London. I’m actually surprised, as at NAB 2017. BT Sport (Andy) was more inclined to hype VR…. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C43DLRzjJZ4#t=27m17s with no mention at all of HDR, which the spokesperson for NBC Sports seemed more enthusiastic about.

It would be nice if BT Sport provided some details at the next IBC (which I plan to attend again with my wife), like others have done with case studies, also describing collaborative assistance, on live distributed HDR projects…..
http://digital-library.theiet.org/co.../ibc.2016.0002

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Yes , that’s a logical assumption….to elaborate, digital capture with full frame sensors in high end digital motion picture cameras and which, b.t.w. one will note, my morning’s purposeful lead-in query to readers to ponder preceded by several hours, the special Sony news announcement at the Le Ride bicycle riding movie screening at Cine Gear and also the posting of the closed meeting with invited press folks……http://www.newsshooter.com/2017/06/0...era-next-year/

Geoff, you should know by now that my ‘ponder for the thinkers’ posts involve hints before official public announcements.

I am glad to hear that some are cognizant of the significance of the SONY full frame sensor news, if only belatedly…..
https://www.redsharknews.com/product...-cinema-camera

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Dolby’s screening room in London

This theater in particular (albeit, for a past teaching event) - https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...r#post13248652

[puddy77]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

And I'm glad to hear some more details on the 4:2:2 aspect of DV as I was always secretly sceptical of the claim that it was outright 4:2:2. That it applies to the 1920x1080 enhancement layer makes a lot more sense given what I've said about disc space and whatnot above (as well as linking indirectly to the HEVC profiles being able to handle 4:2:2/4:4:4 encoding, as the DV layer is also encoded with HEVC).

I don't think he was actually offering any new information, but making assumptions off of 2themax's revelation. So we don't actually know yet if the DV layer is encoded at 4:2:2 only, or the entire thing outputs at 4:2:2.

[HeatEquation]

How much of a difference could 4:2:2 make over 4:2:0 for 4K video? From what I've read from a variety of sources, it doesn't seem like it would be a noticeable difference.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by puddy77

I don't think he was actually offering any new information, but making assumptions off of 2themax's revelation. So we don't actually know yet if the DV layer is encoded at 4:2:2 only, or the entire thing outputs at 4:2:2.

Sounds like more than an assumption to me, and we know for a fact that it'll be built atop a 4:2:0 10-bit HDR10 layer. Sure, if Dolby can create 12-bit out of 10-bit sources (as they can supposedly do even for their single-layer 10-bit delivery of DV) then they could also magic up enhanced 4:2:2 chroma output from the base 4:2:0 but as he states: it may not be the same as an actual native 4:2:2 presentation. That said:

Originally Posted by HeatEquation

How much of a difference could 4:2:2 make over 4:2:0 for 4K video? From what I've read from a variety of sources, it doesn't seem like it would be a noticeable difference.

Indeed. It's fine for pixel peeping at test patterns from a PC but in real world terms with real world moving content? Dunno.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Being the diehard football (soccer) fan I am, since childhood, while at CineGear yesterday I was informed by a colleague that BT Sport was tweeting or facebooking with no workflow details whatsoever about having presented live, the Champions League Final in HDR at Dolby’s screening room in London. I’m actually surprised, as at NAB 2017. BT Sport (Andy) was more inclined to hype VR…. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C43DLRzjJZ4#t=27m17s with no mention at all of HDR, which the spokesperson for NBC Sports seemed more enthusiastic about.....

Later this afternoon I was PMed these couple tweets made by the Chief Operating Officer of BT Sport and BT TV……
https://mobile.twitter.com/jhindhaug...46504484696064

And, in response to another tweeter asking which? HDR format, Jamie apparently claimed both PQ and HLG, ….
https://mobile.twitter.com/jhindhaug...83918262026240

Arte Johnson - Very interesting - YouTube.flv - YouTube

but serious folks need something more technologically substantive than several character tweet explanations when you’re talking acquisition -> -> -> -> exhibition, even if only at one venue (the Dolby theater) despite the Global TV audience significance of the game itself in past years - http://edition.cnn.com/2016/05/26/fo...rid/index.html and I assume this year.

As to VR, I’m not really a fan, but I do admire its more scientific applications in which some folks are motivated to use it…..http://www.nbcnews.com/nightly-news/...s-955306563957

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

...also describing collaborative assistance, on live distributed HDR.....

Something like this , posted just a few hours ago, today…..https://www.sony.co.uk/pro/press/pr-...c=LP_050617_ES

[Penton-Man]

^

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Arte Johnson - Very interesting - YouTube.flv - YouTube

But, my German friends would argue that despite Bayern Munich not making it to the Champions League Final this year, the Bundesliga rules and has for some time…..http://www.live-production.tv/news/s...hdr-tests.html

[gkolb]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Something like this , posted just a few hours ago, today…..https://www.sony.co.uk/pro/press/pr-...c=LP_050617_ES

So, 4K broadcasts in UK (& presumably Japan) !

Where are the good old USofA networks?
Sitting on their asshats?

[disrember]

Originally Posted by gkolb

So, 4K broadcasts in UK (& presumably Japan) !

Where are the good old USofA networks?
Sitting on their asshats?

The 4K broadcasts here in the UK are

BT : Over the internet
Sky : by satellite

[jono3000]

Originally Posted by disrember

The 4K broadcasts here in the UK are

BT : Over the internet
Sky : by satellite

Also I believe the BBC are in the HLG camp with a view to terrestrial broadcasts OTA (via the next iteration of Freeview I assume)

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by gkolb

So, 4K broadcasts in UK (& presumably Japan) !

Where are the good old USofA networks?
Sitting...

Vice President of Operations for NBC Sports….https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C43DLRzjJZ4#t=31m24s

Heck, I would be happy for the time being to see “excitement” evolve into product, if only from a 1080p delivered game just to mitigate SDR truncation of shots involving a portion of the field obscured in shadow by the stadium stands….. https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...s#post11688890

[Penton-Man]

Back to learning about making dem movies…in LA
It’s complicated

In the meantime, for The LEGO Batman Movie this may be easier to understand….

Can you talk about creating the HDR master grade?

Chynoweth: “We took the regular, standard dynamic range digital grade master over to Dolby in LA and found that it slotted in very easily to the HDR world. There was some re-balancing needed for the inherent new contrast in the HDR system, but no real surprises. We’d done some ‘mock HDR’ tests early on — to make sure that we didn’t have any clamped shots or highlights which had been artificially sat down — making the image darker by shifting the black level down — and once we’d set our key mid-tone, essentially skin tone, at a level which we felt looked right in the HDR scene we then let the highlights move around as needed.

https://www.digitalmediaworld.tv/pos...ht-s-baselight

[Geoff D]

I read that earlier today before Penton posted it! Yay me!

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

I read that earlier today before Penton posted it! Yay me!

Well I post when I have a break in work or my personal life, not as soon as I’m made aware of something.

Anyway, you shouldn’t perceive any competition between you and me, rather, the point is, it’s good for Blu-ray membership, as a group, to stay ahead of the curve, like posting of things (albeit sometimes with grammatical errors or typos) in the works long before other websites have heard of them, much less appreciated their significance at the time, even if only at liberty to give out hints to readership .

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

I read

Comprenez vous francais?
http://www.meta-media.fr/2017/05/28/...umeriques.html

Although not elucidated in this ^ or I doubt other reporter’s articles at this time, perhaps the final solution for live Dolby Vision is to create in real time (with only a 1 frame delay) ST 2094-10 metadata in a HDR processing unit positioned to function immediately in front of the encoder at essentially the end of the pipeline, thusly not having to string the metadata throughout the entire broadcast workflow.