HDR Discussion Thread

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Blue Tint

Yes. I think The C9 is meant to be a great TV.

fine TV

Originally Posted by Blue Tint

professionals who do the job for a living

although a minus being, the TV has a hx. of being challenged by auto-dimming
but, although seldom talked about in pubic and revealed, some innovative post facilities have been using a workaround, as I referenced months ago somewhere on this thread

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Steedeel

I own the C9, no complaints here. One of the best TVs I have owned.

good choice

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

a barge pole.

despite any denial, I think you’re teasing me with that pole reference ^
how ‘bout a crane? - https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...s#post16722739

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

good choice

Was quite happy with my Panny plasma I had before that also. Been lucky with TVs. They tend to last a long time. It’s still going now, my sister has it! I just wanted that 4K goodness.

I’m fortunate enough to own a projector also but I tend to watch just films on that.

[LordoftheRings]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

fine TV ... LG OLED C9

although a minus being, the TV has a hx. of being challenged by auto-dimming
but, although seldom talked about in pubic and revealed, some innovative post facilities have been using a workaround, as I referenced months ago somewhere on this thread

Please Penton, do what you excel @ ... one of your excellencies, by providing one of those past links on a workaround (auto-dimming). ... I'll send you a photo (PM) of the Island. Not in HDR but still, better than nothing.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by LordoftheRings

Please Penton, do what you excel @ ... one of your excellencies, by providing one of those past links on a workaround (auto-dimming). ... I'll send you a photo (PM) of the Island. Not in HDR but still, better than nothing.

can’t share how to crack it, as it is a ‘jail break’, but as to confirmation of an existent workaround by at least one post house (watch video in YouTube)….https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...r#post17687516

a pic of Victoria harbour showing dem boats and water if you could, just finished morning bike ride and it’s dry and blazing hot outside

[LordoftheRings]

My pics from Victoria Harbor are on Fujicolor prints (from a 35mm Olympus analog camera), not digital.
One day I would need to transfer the negatives digitally into my PC.

But I have others (digital) that I just need to transfer from few phones and a digital camera into the PC. This would be quicker. I can do this sometime this week, then send you one in private.
I don't know if some are from across the Empress hotel in Victoria, where the main Victoria Harbor is; it will be an experience for me to discover. Anyway I got plenty from where I live and the surroundings, you will recognize instantly. And next time I'm around the harbor I can shoot some digitally.

This is a special favor I'm doing for you, because you are a nice guy.
Give me few days Penton.

Back to HDR discussion ...

[DisplayCalNoob]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

But the point of all this, as we've discussed before, is not to redo the source HDR grade using the DV downconversion tools. The grade is done before the Dolby analysis pass. All those myriad tweaks you're obsessed with are for creating the most effective downconversion, to preserve as much of the already-decided intent as possible within the constraints of the targeted modes e.g. 100 nits, 600 nits, 1000 nits etc, stored as metadata which then informs the dynamic DV tone mapping on the target display.

I understand the purpose of trim passes, I was more fond of the extension of the number of trim passes available. Hoping they would address some of my concerns with color as well, which is something previously discussed with Stacey. Trim passes are still optional,

DV being HDR10 reworked, leading to the creation of scene by scene or frame by frame metadata, because even the original grade needs refinement. The ICtCp color model, is an example of the constant research that occurs at Dolby.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by DisplayCalNoob

I understand the purpose of trim passes, I was more fond of the extension of the number of trim passes available. Hoping they would address some of my concerns with color as well, which is something previously discussed with Stacey. Trim passes are still optional,

DV being HDR10 reworked, leading to the creation of scene by scene or frame by frame metadata, because even the original grade needs refinement. The ICtCp color model, is an example of the constant research that occurs at Dolby.

...and all the metadata is for is to assist the DOWNCONVERSION of the grade, not to subsequently alter the grade itself. I'm not making it up, the DV user guide for Autodesk Lustre literally says that if you alter the source grade during this process then you have to start over and do another analysis pass. And ITP is great and all but there's no technical reason it couldn't be used to encode HDR10, apart from it being blocked by a paywall.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by LordoftheRings

....This is a special favor I'm doing for you, because you are a nice guy.
Give me few days Penton.

You’re making me feel embarrassed as I hadn’t realized the process you must go thru personally. Hey, take your time, any island pic from off your phone or digital camera would have sufficed.

Originally Posted by LordoftheRings

Back to HDR discussion ...

Victoria/Vancouver, popular destination that - https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...t#post15743247

Note, as a follow-up to something I mentioned on the last page -

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

https://amp-cnn-com.cdn.ampproject.o...ide/index.html
and in there ^ (mentioned in the article), not only Atmos but a shout out regarding Dolby Vision IQ
P.S.
development thanks to Robin – https://www.linkedin.com/in/robin-atkins-8445197a/
and team

If you scroll down and expand his patents….https://www.linkedin.com/in/robert-wanat-0816a090/
, you'll notice Robert was one of the team of inventors for what evolved commercially into what’s become known by hobbyists as - Dolby Vision IQ.

[DisplayCalNoob]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

...and all the metadata is for is to assist the DOWNCONVERSION of the grade, not to subsequently alter the grade itself. I'm not making it up, the DV user guide for Autodesk Lustre literally says that if you alter the source grade during this process then you have to start over and do another analysis pass. And ITP is great and all but there's no technical reason it couldn't be used to encode HDR10, apart from it being blocked by a paywall.

Is that the same process for Davinci Resolve?

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by DisplayCalNoob

Is that the same process for Davinci Resolve?

You can read all about it here: https://mixinglight.com/color-tutori...-for-everyone/

Note the constant references to the trim controls viz getting the "downstream" versions to best match the original source grade, that's what I've been saying over and over and over and over. It's literally what the Dolby Vision metadata is for: you take your primary creative intent e.g. a finalised HDR grade and then run it through the analysis pass set to a specific target output - say 100 nit SDR 709 - to create the best looking version for that target, using manual trims if necessary. Not to make it look conspicuously different, but to hew as closely as possible to the original grade within the confines of that preset target, and the downconversion decisions are stored as metadata which is appended to the original grade inside a 'Dolby Vision' wrapper, ready to be deployed as and when.

...the trim controls provide creative control over your downstream (SDR + lower nit HDR) versions that are derived from the original HDR grade. The concept with trim controls being if you’re not happy with the automatic analysis, (which usually does a good job BTW) you can use the trim controls to adjust the downstream image to better match the creative intent of your original HDR grade.

[David M]

Originally Posted by DisplayCalNoob

Is that the same process for Davinci Resolve?

Yes. If you alter the grading, any metadata generated from it is presumably invalid, so it needs to recalculate. It'd be the same in any grading tool.

[LordoftheRings]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

You’re making me feel embarrassed as I hadn’t realized the process you must go thru personally. Hey, take your time, any island pic from off your phone or digital camera would have sufficed.

Don't feel embarrassed because it's easy for me to go to the harbor and take some digitally, with my cell phone or digital camera.
But the ones more impressive are from back then when Barbra Streisand's super yacht was in the Victoria Harbor. And there were impressive three-mast sailing boats, and super Katamarans. Across are also the parliament buildings, and the Victoria IMAX theater inside the museum building. Not far behind there's a nice park. On a clear day you see the mountains across in the USA.

I could write few books about the South Island and beyond. Another day in another thread, perhaps.

I checked some already transferred in my PC. They are more the romantic type with more nature than man-made super toys. ...The ocean, some gardens, trees, etc.
I'm more a nature guy than a toy guy. But I like toys too, to play with not to shoot.

You knew that Victoria is the capital of British Columbia?
It's a small city, smaller than Vancouver. It's super relaxed.

[DisplayCalNoob]

• Global metadata (L0)
o A single mastering monitor
o Recorded target displays are valid and not duplicated
o Color encoding metadata matches the output render
o Aspect ratio (image, canvas) matches the project's
o Algorithm version matches the project's version
o Signal range matches the output render

• Dynamic, per-shot metadata (L1, L2, L3, L5, L8)
o No overlapping shots
o No gaps between frames and/or shots
o No negative duration
o Valid L1, L2, L3 and L8 metadata values
o Only one single trim per target (no duplicate trims)
o Shots have no missing L1 metadata

L9 Dynamic Rxy, Gxy, Bxy, WPxy Stores the mastering display color primaries and white point as per-shot
metadata

Just thought some metadata, dynamic or not is still necessary, for gamut mapping, etc. Even if tone mapping isn't necessary.

[DanBa]

System and Method of Creating or Approving Multiple Video Streams
https://patents.google.com/patent/US20120026405

"Abstract: In an embodiment, a system generates multiple video streams. The system includes a color grading device and an appearance mapping device. The appearance mapping device operates on the data generated by the color grading device, and both the output of the color grading device and the output of the appearance mapping device may be displayed (and edited) simultaneously. In this manner, the efficiency of the editing process is improved."

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by DisplayCalNoob

• Global metadata (L0)
o A single mastering monitor
o Recorded target displays are valid and not duplicated
o Color encoding metadata matches the output render
o Aspect ratio (image, canvas) matches the project's
o Algorithm version matches the project's version
o Signal range matches the output render

• Dynamic, per-shot metadata (L1, L2, L3, L5, L8)
o No overlapping shots
o No gaps between frames and/or shots
o No negative duration
o Valid L1, L2, L3 and L8 metadata values
o Only one single trim per target (no duplicate trims)
o Shots have no missing L1 metadata

L9 Dynamic Rxy, Gxy, Bxy, WPxy Stores the mastering display color primaries and white point as per-shot
metadata

Just thought some metadata, dynamic or not is still necessary, for gamut mapping, etc. Even if tone mapping isn't necessary.

Metadata as a concept is carried by video streams (not just HDR, I mean throughout the grading/mastering world) in order to communicate any number of parameters to the target device, theatrical DCPs carry very similar things as to the L0 list above, but that's not what I'm talking about. It's the enduring myth that Dolby Vision at source is some mystical magical process only known to a few crusty shamans, when the reality is somewhat more prosaic; there's even a DV encoding profile designed to take an actual HDR10 stream and Dolbyfy it.

I'm talking about Dolby Vision and its dynamic mapping w/ref to all those analysis passes and trim controls stored as metadata: they are not there to change or refine the creative intent in itself, only to change/refine it in relation to the process of downconverting it. DanBa's flow chart above ably demonstrates how the two are kept completely separate until such time as the output from them is resolved into the same wrapper.

[Penton-Man]

As HDR is becoming more adopted and refined in practice, Boneyard Ballet also used HDR monitors on set, e.g. as noted and described in this kindly complimentary issue of Film and Digital Times…..https://www.fdtimes.com/issues/april-2020/

[DisplayCalNoob]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Metadata as a concept is carried by video streams (not just HDR, I mean throughout the grading/mastering world) in order to communicate any number of parameters to the target device, theatrical DCPs carry very similar things as to the L0 list above, but that's not what I'm talking about. It's the enduring myth that Dolby Vision at source is some mystical magical process only known to a few crusty shamans, when the reality is somewhat more prosaic; there's even a DV encoding profile designed to take an actual HDR10 stream and Dolbyfy it.

I'm talking about Dolby Vision and its dynamic mapping w/ref to all those analysis passes and trim controls stored as metadata: they are not there to change or refine the creative intent in itself, only to change/refine it in relation to the process of downconverting it. DanBa's flow chart above ably demonstrates how the two are kept completely separate until such time as the output from them is resolved into the same wrapper.

Agreed.

My initial post, was a rebuke to the idea that DV exist solely as a means to support inadequate displays. When it is just one aspect that it performs well.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by DisplayCalNoob

Agreed.

My initial post, was a rebuke to the idea that DV exist solely as a means to support inadequate displays. When it is just one aspect that it performs well.

And my initial reply was in support of his comment, however bluntly he stated it. The single biggest USP for Dolby Vision in the home is exactly that: to support inadequate displays. Remove that from the equation and it doesn't do more colour or more nits or more whatever than HDR10, that's sheer marketing bullshit. It does however do 12 bits of gradation rather than 10, albeit on the discs which actually have a FEL layer (and streaming doesn't even have that, though it is encoded in ITP unlike discs), which should give smoother gradations even on a 10-bit display owing to the powah of oversampling. But if HDR10 is handled competently then banding should not be an issue, same goes for the fixing of dodgy chroma compression when it should not be that bad in the first place. Though most people don't even see these things anyway!

Dolby Vision is a fine system, but I'm not after hagiography. That's what annoys me about the blogosphere when it comes to HDR: all too often it's the Devil's work to some and the light shining out of God's arse on the other, each one driven by their own share of misinformation, misunderstanding and/or marketing sizzle.