HDR Discussion Thread

[FilmFreakosaurus]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Sony announced a tie-up with Dolby re: using their Dolby Vision suite to mastering their HDR content in general, the press release made no mention of UHD Blu-ray whatsoever. (Same with Warners when they announced a similar partnership with Dolby re: HDR)

Besides, it'd sure help if consumer players actually existed that could fully decode the DV UHD discs, no? Even if Pete is correct and the mastering, authoring etc for legit DV on disc has already been done, I doubt we'll see those respective get discs released until the playback hardware is in place to support it in the home.

With DV being required to have some sort of backwards compatible layer (SDR or even HDR10) on UHD Blu-ray... if everything else is in place they wouldn't need to wait for the players.

Unless they just want to find another reason to double dip.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by FilmFreakosaurus

With DV being required to have some sort of backwards compatible layer (SDR or even HDR10) on UHD Blu-ray... if everything else is in place they wouldn't need to wait for the players.

Unless they just want to find another reason to double dip.

Dude, I keep telling you that the DV implementation for UHD Blu-ray must include an HDR10 layer, it's a mandatory requirement for any HDR UHD disc but you just won't have it, will you?

With that in mind, yes, they could release them now and people could enjoy them as-is but the DV part - which will no doubt be trumpeted on the cover and in press releases etc - would still be as useful as concrete parachute at this moment in time. I think the studios who are going to use DV on disc will wait until all the ducks are lined up in a row.

[flyry]

Originally Posted by FilmFreakosaurus

No, not unless you get a decoder box with 4k support. What you are looking for in particular with cabling is certified 18 Gbps compliance.

Thank you. Have one on the way tomorrow with my UHD player

[Richard Paul]

Danba, the current plan for the 5th edition of HEVC is that it will be technically finished in late 2017 and approved/published in early 2018.

Originally Posted by DanBa

"When asked about the added cost of Dolby Vision compared to HDR10, Griffis said, “the incremental cost is minimal and frankly a fraction of the total TV cost which is much more driven by the display electronics and electronic components, not royalties.”"

It is no surprise that a Dolby employee would respond that way. Also I think the proprietary nature of Dolby Vision is probably just as big of a negative to a lot of CE companies as any added cost.

[PeterTHX]

Originally Posted by Richard Paul

It is no surprise that a Dolby employee would respond that way. Also I think the proprietary nature of Dolby Vision is probably just as big of a negative to a lot of CE companies as any added cost.

No more than Dolby Digital or Dolby AC-4 or Atmos.


Performance is there and if customers like it they will be happy to supply it.

[Geoff D]

Hmmm. I think Dolby had an historical 'in' with audio because of what they did with Dolby Stereo back in the day (although when it comes to Blu-ray DTS blackjacked them but good, Atmos has been a comeback of sorts). But they're not the only game in town at the start of this HDR home video era, so they could find it awfully difficult to get to the top of the tree.

[Penton-Man]

With the launch of the Z9D series, it will be interesting (as well as pertinent) to see as to what evolves as the client monitor of choice in all Hollywood post facilities.

[DanBa]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

... client monitor of choice in all Hollywood post facilities.

What are the (most frequently used) sets of target system display metadata ([540 nits, % P3 …], [1000 nits% P3 …], [2000 nits, % P3 …], [3000 nits, % P3 …]) of current 4000 nit Dolby Vision-mastered contents with grading trim passes for lower levels?

"A metadata set in ST 2094 incorporates a time interval, a window, metadata describing the targeted system display and parameters controlling the color volume transform. A receiver of the metadata can use the targeted system display metadata to select the metadata sets that are most applicable to the actual output device. A receiver of the metadata can use the targeted system display metadata to adjust the output of the color volume transform from the specified output device to the actual output device."
[Indication of SMPTE 2094-10 metadata in HEVC]
http://phenix.it-sudparis.eu/jct/doc...ch_sub_group=1

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Other than the value geared toward optimizing for the creative intent of the filmmaker, addressing another value of dynamic metadata on the production end and with commercial tools (Dolby) that have been available to studios for awhile now…..and not mentioned or realized in past articles like this -> http://www.redsharknews.com/technolo...n-dolby-vision nor, I doubt on any hobbyist websites/forums is that a good reason to use the Dolby Vision mastering process is also to save money on storage/archiving in the long term. Yeah, y’all read that right….I said save money.

For you see, that instead of Sony doing multiple graded versions (masters) of their movies at differing nits levels and archiving alllllllll those immmmmages from different versions for later distribution, on the other hand,

with the DV mastering process one needs only store a single 4000 nit HDR master (ex. Chappie) and multiple sets of dynamic metadata at differing nits levels to produce other lesser peak luminance masters if/when needed <- that later data size being MUCH smaller than that required for the storing of thousands of images from multiple luminance versions.

[DanBa]

A Dolby Vision / HDR10 / HLG compatible UHD TV SoC: Sigma Designs STV7804
It supports HEVC and VP9 Profile 2.

"While most competitors are working on their first generation of HDR solutions, STV7804 represents Sigma’s 3rd Generation of High Dynamic Range and Wide Color Gamut designs. This mature platform offers a universal programmable HDR Engine that supports HDR10, Dolby Vision and a new HDR standard called HLG (Hybrid Log Gamma) with Rec-2020 Wide Color Gamut. In addition, Sigma widens its PQ (picture quality) superiority with its 3rd generation Super resolution technology design."
http://www.sigmadesigns.com/news/sig...ate-converter/

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by DanBa

What are the (most frequently used) sets of target system display metadata ([540 nits, % P3 …], [1000 nits% P3 …], [2000 nits, % P3 …], [3000 nits, % P3 …]) of current 4000 nit Dolby Vision-mastered contents with grading trim passes for lower levels?

afaik, content creators haven’t been releasing that specific information in order for one to form a grand consensus as to the most popular nits level version. Currently, a safe scenario would be to do a single 4000 nit master with multiple sets of color transform metadata at various nits levels.

P.S.
b.t.w., your list could include at least one more menu option ->

[Richard Paul]

Originally Posted by PeterTHX

No more than Dolby Digital or Dolby AC-4 or Atmos.

A closed proprietary system is a bigger issue for video than it is for audio. CE companies use different video processing methods to differentiate their displays from the displays of other companies. With open HDR standards they can continue to do that and for example can use video processing methods that can alter brightness depending on ambient light. Dolby Vision is well designed for a director in a light controlled room but CE companies are selling their displays to consumers.

Originally Posted by PeterTHX

Performance is there and if customers like it they will be happy to supply it.

If Dolby was completely confident that Dolby Vision would become a widespread standard like Dolby Digital than why create open standards for ICtCp and SMPTE 2094-10 which are the two main elements of Dolby Vision? In my opinion it looks like even Dolby is expecting open HDR standards to win in the long run.

[DanBa]

Originally Posted by Richard Paul

A closed proprietary system is a bigger issue for video than it is for audio. CE companies use different video processing methods to differentiate their displays from the displays of other companies. With open HDR standards they can continue to do that and for example can use video processing methods that can alter brightness depending on ambient light. Dolby Vision is well designed for a director in a light controlled room but CE companies are selling their displays to consumers.

Are you saying that Dolby doesn’t allow CE companies to use display processing after the Dolby Vision color volume mapping?




By the way, I’m wondering if the viewing environment metadata, mentioned in the following Dolby patent, is included in the Dolby Vision specifications.
https://www.google.com/patents/US20120321273

"The metadata may provide information relating to: characteristics of a reference display used to edit the video data, characteristics of the environment in which the reference display is situated, characteristics of the edited image (e.g. luminance and gamut), characteristics of the viewing environment in which the display of the display subsystem is situated, etc.
In some embodiments, at least some of this information may be determined at the studio during post-production processing of the video data.
Parameters describing the environment in which the display of the display subsystem is situated. Such parameters may include, for example, ambient luminance and/or tone or color temperature.
Viewing environment metadata 225C may be used to guide processing of video data at block 208 and/or display configuration at block 210."

Originally Posted by Richard Paul

If Dolby was completely confident that Dolby Vision would become a widespread standard like Dolby Digital than why create open standards for ICtCp and SMPTE 2094-10 which are the two main elements of Dolby Vision? In my opinion it looks like even Dolby is expecting open HDR standards to win in the long run.

As far as I understand from information gathered on the Internet, Dolby Vision and the future SMPTE 2094-10 Dynamic HDR are the same, leaving out the standardization stuff (SMPTE 2094-10 vs. Dolby-documented dynamic metadata, SMPTE 2094-10 metadata in HEVC stream vs. Dolby Vision metadata in separate stream, Standardized HDMI transport vs. Wrapped data transport over HDMI 1.4).

As SMPTE 2094-10 is an open standard, it seems that CE companies can have their own SMPTE 2094-10 implementation and don’t have to use and pay the current Dolby DoVi IP color volume mapping.
As they pay the HEVC fees, they will only pay the SMPTE 2094-10 fees.

[PeterTHX]

Originally Posted by Richard Paul

If Dolby was completely confident that Dolby Vision would become a widespread standard like Dolby Digital than why create open standards for ICtCp and SMPTE 2094-10 which are the two main elements of Dolby Vision? In my opinion it looks like even Dolby is expecting open HDR standards to win in the long run.

Seems to me currently the "open" standard is a clusterf---.

[Tok]

Originally Posted by PeterTHX

Seems to me currently the "open" standard is a clusterf---.

Completely agree. I'm sticking with Blu-ray until this is sorted out.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

And HFR (100/120 Hz)
below, are thee SAMVIQ (ITU-R BT. 1788) subjective testing method results tallied from 31 observers (pre-screened for normal vision)



as opposed to HDR, HFR could be described as being in the embryonic phase of consumer delivery, but it’s value (in terms of quality of experience) for sports, rivals that of HDR especially if you’re dealing with sporting events in which the players and the camera(s) move (camera pans). This is why next gen leaders like the EBU are also doing HDR and HFR demos at an upcoming professional conference, namely IBC 2016, top bullet point demo -> https://tech.ebu.ch/events/2016/ibc-2016

First, A prelude from Berlin….



P.S.
If readers are unfamiliar with HLG HDR, well you haven't been following the tech threads on Blu-ray.com for about the past 2 years in which specific details regarding its development and implementation have been thoroughly discussed. Any questions about it?....address Richard Paul et al. as I'll be busy for at least the next two weeks.

[Robert Zohn]

Just to make it easy for everyone to know, HLG, (Hybrid Log Gamma) is another HDR standard.

HLG is mostly used for live sports TV Broadcasting as it can be easily adopted by all TV Broadcasters with their existing systems. Most broadcast cameras are capable of SDR and HLG so they can switch to HDR on the fly.

Using HLG actually helps the broadcasters as they do not need tone graders on the ENG trucks.

The benefit to 4K UHD HDR consumers is a much higher dynamic tonal range and HLG can be broadcast in UHD or FHD. Could you image FHD with HDR image performance!

Finally, HLG does not require a license or special SoC, Sony and LG TVs are HLG ready.

[Richard Paul]

Originally Posted by DanBa

Are you saying that Dolby doesn’t allow CE companies to use display processing after the Dolby Vision color volume mapping?

It is hard to know what Dolby Vision requires since that information is under NDA but I have heard rumors that there are reasons for why most CE companies would prefer an open HDR standard.

Originally Posted by DanBa

As SMPTE 2094-10 is an open standard, it seems that CE companies can have their own SMPTE 2094-10 implementation and don’t have to use and pay the current Dolby DoVi IP color volume mapping.
As they pay the HEVC fees, they will only pay the SMPTE 2094-10 fees.

Based on what Dolby did with HEVC Advance my guess is that it will be an additional fee.

Originally Posted by PeterTHX

Seems to me currently the "open" standard is a clusterf---.

SMPTE 2094 does have four dynamic metadata systems but choices are good and is a lot better than the alternative. SMPTE 2094 has the Dolby system for those who prefer it and has the Samsung system which is royalty-free.

[tigtat77]

Hope this is the right place for this. I just got the LG 55UH8500. I have the standard picture tweaked pretty well I think. Question is regarding when playing HDR discs. It defaults from my expert dark to HDR normal and max on contrast and backlight. Is this right for best HDR results? I am using the Samsung UHD player. Tried independance day and it looked pretty darn good. However I just tried Huntsman Winters War and the dark scenes were pretty bad imo, really dark and washed out. Thanks in advance.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by tigtat77

Hope this is the right place for this. I just got the LG 55UH8500. I have the standard picture tweaked pretty well I think. Question is...

If no kind soul comes around to offer assistance perhaps try one of the more dedicated display chain threads.

[DanBa]

Max luminance roadmap according to Microsoft:
http://www.dualshockers.com/2016/03/...ares-new-info/



Max luminance & current HDR10 movies:
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-di...l#post45858785



Sony Z9D max luminance : 1887 nits
https://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.p...&postcount=160