HDR Discussion Thread

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

P.S.
If readers are unfamiliar with HLG HDR, well you haven't been following the tech threads on Blu-ray.com for about the past 2 years...

And longer (3½ years) with regards to the perceptual quantizer (PQ) as an EOTF for HDR with such discussed specifics as a description of its coding method, e.g. this below quoted post is now so old that the paper it originally linked - ‘Perceptual Signal Coding for More Efficient Usage of Bit Codes’ now shuttles readers into the generic SMPTE Digital library website -

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

a marked, almost revolutionary change to improvement of the viewing experience…..once the scientists/engineers can get it *to work*. But they are working on it, esp. those from Dolby…
https://www.smpte.org/digital-library

But here be the pdf for posterity….. https://www.smpte.org/sites/default/...c02-Miller.pdf to appreciate the history and to realize how far we’ve come since then in trying to surpass truncated SDR with next gen imagery , whether one favors for watching movies an open or proprietary HDR implementation based upon PQ.

[Penton-Man]

Finally, back to HLG (HDR) HFR...

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

First, A prelude from Berlin….

You guys should be able to figure out the type of event pictured on the left, as to the right, if that appears a bit pic unclear, it was a tennis match.

[DanBa]

"HLG is an open technology that doesn’t require use of metadata, since it is backward compatible with SDR TVs, although Pat Griffis, Dolby Labs office of the CTO, VP of Technology, pointed out that the backward compatibility only applies if the SDR is Rec. 2020 color (the latest color primaries) and not legacy Rec .709 color primaries. This would make the backward compatibility benefit less useful in most applications."
http://www.dtcreports.com/weeklyriff...n-hdr-log-jam/

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by DanBa

"HLG is an open technology that doesn’t require use of metadata, since it is backward compatible with SDR TVs, although Pat Griffis, Dolby Labs office of the CTO, VP of Technology, pointed out that the backward compatibility only applies if the SDR is Rec. 2020 color (the latest color primaries) and not legacy Rec .709 color primaries....

Months ago, HLG (Sony HDC-4300 camera) was used to produce a SDR 709 backward compatible signal....which worked. This pictorial was sort of (it has since had some things added in for HFR implementation) workflow….



And not only did it work, but several of the filmmakers including the DP very much liked the quality of the HLG ->SDR 709 signal (it was as good or better) as when they compared to the separate (outside of this experimental project) HD 709 feed which was shown live to the public vis–à–vis the contracted broadcaster.

[DanBa]

Then the color space of the HLG signal should be BT.709.

In the case of a BT.2020 WCG signal, a conversion should be carried out between a BT.2020 HLG source and a legacy BT.709 SDR TV.

[Penton-Man]

^
just testing you ....it is/was a noble goal (far bottom right pathway)….



p.s.

see you guys after amsterdam and geneva.

after my hfr supplemented post above, i see one of the journos picked up on the hlg hfr berlin demo, easy read…http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/lg-hfr-201609054359.htm

[DanBa]

Mass Effect: Andromeda gameplay in Dolby Vision & HDR10 (Dolby Vision on PC)
http://totalgamingnetwork.com/showth...4-Pro-Gameplay

[puddy77]

Originally Posted by DanBa

Mass Effect: Andromeda gameplay in Dolby Vision & HDR10 (Dolby Vision on PC)
http://totalgamingnetwork.com/showth...4-Pro-Gameplay

[Show spoiler]

They say it will support HDR10 on the consoles and Dolby Vision on PC. That's the first time I've seen DV mentioned in relation to a game and/or PC. Very interesting.

[DanBa]

About Dolby Vision & PC:

"Q: How do graphics cards (from Nvidia and AMD) figure in this picture? Will these cards need to integrate Dolby Vision chips or something similar or will the technology work with existing hardware?

R [Mike Chao, VP of Dolby]: Typically, hardware with this kind of capability can run Dolby Vision in software but there are no products announced today."
http://tech.firstpost.com/news-analy...ow-309996.html


"Dolby Vision is definitely coming to some AAA games in the next year or so, including ones I've worked on. Plus it's supported in Unreal IV so that means it's just a checkbox to enable it in any game that chooses to allow gamers to use it.

Ironically Dolby Vision is more likely to be supported in games than HDR10, despite being the higher end / superior standard, because it can work in HDMI 1.4 and on older consoles and video cards, and provides a very big visual bang for the buck for little overhead. For example, if you have an Xbox One, a PS4, or a PC with an NVidia GTX 970 / 980, Dolby Vision is the only way to get HDR to your TV. And ironically Dolby Vision TVs in the form of the Vizio P series are amongst the cheapest HDR TVs available today. So there's a very good chance that DV will see a lot of market penetration. When the bean counters over at the big studios take notice, it's usually from things like Dynamic Metadata HDR being able to be sent over an HDMI 1.4 connection with very little overhead to both the coder and to the console performance, since the game engines already assumed the cost of HDR and have for years now."
[RLBURNSIDE, game developer and graphics engineer]
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/465-hi...l#post44894490

[DanBa]

Dolby Vision licensing fees

"You may hear about one other difference between Dolby Vision and HDR10. Some people will point out that TV manufacturers pay to have Dolby Vision in their displays, while HDR10 is free. While that’s true, the difference isn’t significant. The royalty cost to add Dolby Vision ranges from less than $3 per TV to lower than $2 per TV. Manufacturers are making some very affordable Dolby Vision enabled TVs – Vizio’s M series of Dolby Vision enabled displays includes some that retail for as low as $750. Dolby Vision enables these TVs to achieve a level of performance that would otherwise require more expensive hardware."
[Giles Baker, SVP of Dolby]
https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/dolby...ar-giles-baker

[Pieter V]

Android TV 7.0 supports Dolby Vision, HDR10 and HLG

http://www.flatpanelshd.com/news.php...&id=1473405995

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Richard Paul

open standards for ICtCp and SMPTE 2094-10

As to ICtCp, it’s also a good container to enable real-time
cross-mapping of SDR and HDR-WCG imagery, newly presented at Amsterdam -> http://digital-library.theiet.org/co.../ibc.2016.0014

[Penton-Man]

Last July, with regards to the discussion about SMPTE ST 2094 (dynamic metadata and HDR) and to offer readers a perspective as to the state of affairs at that time, I shared this tidbit of inside information on July 23….https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...e#post12468864

because the detailed document was not available for public consumption, only a brief summary ending with the paragraph about Backward Comparability. So, flash forward to September and just prior to the start of IBC, the UHD Guidelines document itself has now been made public by the Forum, as officially announced several days ago.... http://ultrahdforum.org/ibc-2016-pre...ic-plugfest-2/.

Heads-up as it can be a useful reference for newbies as well as those with experience as it ^ covers a lot of UHDTV facets.

[Penton-Man]

The latest DVB (https://www.dvb.org/about) meetings related to UHDTV wrapped Wed. and the consortium is on schedule to finalize and publish its HDR standard before the end of this year (from the 5 candidate solutions) for its next profile in UHD. More meetings today.

[BluRayHiDef]

I need a bit of advice. I'd like to know whether it would be better to buy an affordable UHDTV right now for about $500 (Samsung UN40KU6300), which would be able to display only an 8-bit color range, or wait until 10-bit UHDTVs become cheaper. Do you think that I'd be able to snag a good deal on a 10-bit panel on either Black Friday or during Christmas shopping season?

[FilmFreakosaurus]

Originally Posted by BluRayHiDef

I need a bit of advice. I'd like to know whether it would be better to buy an affordable UHDTV right now for about $500 (Samsung UN40KU6300), which would be able to display only an 8-bit color range, or wait until 10-bit UHDTVs become cheaper. Do you think that I'd be able to snag a good deal on a 10-bit panel on either Black Friday or during Christmas shopping season?

Definitely get a 10 bit, HDR panel. I would assume you'll get a better deal around the holidays.

[Richard Paul]

Dolby has published a hit piece on HLG:

http://www.dolby.com/us/en/technolog...s-with-HLG.pdf

Dolby did hold back a little since they didn't accuse HLG of witchcraft but the article does have plenty of FUD (fear, uncertainty, and doubt). Dolby is a business trying to make money so I do expect them to fight against their competitors but their are some major issues with the article:

1. The OOTF was designed to change brightness depending on ambient light but at most it would halve or double the brightness. Using a pretend scenario where the brightness is increased by 10x is very misleading. I guess that competing against a royalty-free competitor can be a bit scary but sticking with 2x would have been more accurate.
2. The use of 1,000 nits by HLG is based on what was used in BT.2100 and has little to do with HLG itself. If professional standards in the future use HLG at 12-bits they could easily choose a higher nits value.
3. YCbCr always decreases the brightness range and the article doesn't clearly explain that the graph at the end of the article is specific to YCbCr.

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

As to ICtCp, it’s also a good container to enable real-time
cross-mapping of SDR and HDR-WCG imagery, newly presented at Amsterdam -> http://digital-library.theiet.org/co.../ibc.2016.0014

ICtCp is interesting though when Apple tested it they found that errors were amplified if video was converted into both ICtCp and YCbCr. If further testing supports their results that would mean that it would be best if HDR video was captured as RGB.

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

The latest DVB (https://www.dvb.org/about) meetings related to UHDTV wrapped Wed. and the consortium is on schedule to finalize and publish its HDR standard before the end of this year (from the 5 candidate solutions) for its next profile in UHD. More meetings today.

My guess is that DVB will add both HLG and PQ. Way to many broadcasters in Europe are interested in HLG for it to be ignored and Dolby has enough pull in Europe that PQ will be added. Technicolor really wants their HDR system to be added but it is both proprietary and complex so that is very unlikely.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Richard Paul

Dolby has published a hit piece on HLG:

http://www.dolby.com/us/en/technolog...s-with-HLG.pdf....

I guess desperate times call for desperate measures by some with white papers…especially since HLG was prolifically demoed at IBC 2016 and people liked what they saw. Also it has garnered vocal industry support, e.g…..http://www.sportsvideo.org/2016/09/1...e-power-of-vr/

Now you’ve got me wondering if enumerating HLG first. ahead of ST 2084 (PQ) as a relevant HDR format at Sony’s press conference upset any Dolby marketers, ~ 12min 40sec timestamp….

Sony Professional: IBC Press Conference 2016 - YouTube

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

First, A prelude from Berlin….



You guys should be able to figure out the type of event pictured on the left, as to the right, if that appears a bit pic unclear, it was a tennis match.

The HFR imagery shown on the display to the left was from a track and field championship held in Switzerland. Original footage at the time was actually acquired with shutter angles of 180.0 and 356.0 degrees (to be precise), of which that particular information you will not find in any reporter coverage....as they simply aren’t privy to it.

b.t.w., with the exception of a couple of reporters, I find the general lack of awareness by the *videophile* journalistic community as to appreciating this HFR/HDR operational milestone as demoed at IFA and IBC to be similar to the lack of understanding, at the time, as to the significance of this Sept. 2014 heads-up alert (that the perceptual quantizer EOTF (SMPTE ST 2084) had been approved and published) -

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

under the publication radar that is -
This standard specifies an EOTF characterizing high-dynamic-range reference displays used primarily for mastering non-broadcast content. http://www.techstreet.com/standards/...uct_id=1883436

And yet, two years later (Sept. 2016), seems every reporter and AV blogger with his own website has become a PQ transfer function pundit or ‘expert’ with regards to HDR10 and Dolby Vision. Perhaps it will take 2 years from now (2018) for bloggers to realize the value of HFR/HDR for TV viewers. At least like with ST 2084, you heard it here, first.

[DanBa]

Originally Posted by Richard Paul

open standards for ICtCp and SMPTE 2094-10

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

As to ICtCp, it’s also a good container to enable real-time
cross-mapping of SDR and HDR-WCG imagery, newly presented at Amsterdam -> http://digital-library.theiet.org/co.../ibc.2016.0014

As far as I understand, there is no operational HDR system using the ICtCp color representation: according to the Ultra HD Blu-ray white paper, HDR10 / BDMV HDR and Dolby Vision are using YCbCr.


So, what would be the impacts of ICtCp:
. no use, no impact
. enhanced Ultra HD Blu-ray using mandatory YCbCr and optional ICtCp
. new SMPTE 2094 dynamic metadata-based HDR formats
. new HLG HDR format
...?