HDR Discussion Thread

[DanBa]

YouTube expects VP9 Profile 2 / YouTube HDR to be included in every HDR TV in 2017.


HDR10 / Dolby Vision TV makers (LG, Vizio, Skyworth, TCL, Loewe or LeEco) will likely add YouTube HDR into their 2017 HDR TV.

These HDR TV should be near-universal HDR TV (HDR10, Dolby Vision, YouTube HDR).

Dynamic HDR / HEVC HLG HDR update should be possible if planned:
. SMPTE ST 2094-10 Dynamic HDR is similar to Dolby Vision leaving out the standardization stuff
. ST 2094-10 dynamic metadata proposed by Dolby seems to be more complex than other ST 2094 dynamic metadata
. Dolby Vision capable SoC should have enough processing power to support any Dynamic HDR.


"CTA HDR10 doesn't specify a codec, and although presence of a VP9 Profile 2 decoder is not universal in this model year, we expect it to be in every HDR TV in 2017, so the distinction will soon be irrelevant to consumers."
[Steven Robertson – YouTube]
https://youtube.googleblog.com/2016/...t-for-hdr.html


CTA HDR10: defines HDR10 compatible displays (i.e. CTA doesn’t specify a codec)
https://www.cta.tech/News/Press-Rele...-Displays.aspx

DECE HDR10: defines HDR10 media profile (i.e. DECE specifies the HEVC codec)
http://www.uvcentral.com/sites/defau...Format-2_1.pdf

(Ultra HD Blu-ray) BDMV HDR = DECE HDR10
http://blu-raydisc.com/Assets/Downlo...608a-clean.pdf

VP9-PQ file stored on YouTube cloud >> Internet >> VP9-PQ compliant Chromecast Ultra > CTA HDR10 uncompressed video >> VP9-PQ YouTube HDR compliant TV

VP9-PQ file stored on YouTube cloud >> Internet >> VP9-PQ compliant Chromecast Ultra > CTA HDR10 uncompressed video >> HDR10 compliant TV

[DanBa]

The LG's 2017 HDR TV Signature "will be unveiled at CES 2017, earned top industry honors in video displays with the “Best of Innovations Award”".
http://www.lgnewsroom.com/2016/11/lg...vation-awards/

"In regards to HDR, LG has made an important pledge to support all major formats, including Dolby Vision, which other TV manufacturers have shied away from backing."
[CES 2016]
http://www.theverge.com/2016/1/5/107...unced-ces-2016

[Richard Paul]

Originally Posted by DanBa

The 2nd phase of Ultra HD Premium:
https://www.avforums.com/article/uhd...-premium.13090
...

It sounds like they will be making an announcement about HLG at CES 2017 and that the dynamic metadata announcement will be made later that year.

Originally Posted by DanBa

It is a pity that these documents are restricted to TIES users!

The ITU is much more open than MPEG/SMPTE but sadly they still keep their working documents behind a firewall.

Originally Posted by DanBa

YouTube expects VP9 Profile 2 / YouTube HDR to be included in every HDR TV in 2017.
...
"CTA HDR10 doesn't specify a codec, and although presence of a VP9 Profile 2 decoder is not universal in this model year, we expect it to be in every HDR TV in 2017, so the distinction will soon be irrelevant to consumers."
[Steven Robertson – YouTube]
https://youtube.googleblog.com/2016/...t-for-hdr.html

I guess all the royalty problems with HEVC are making VP9 a lot more popular.

[DanBa]

Originally Posted by Richard Paul

I guess all the royalty problems with HEVC are making VP9 a lot more popular.

Apparently, a lot of ongoing works on royalty-free open-source coding, VP9 and its successor, AOM AV1, more efficient:

Royalty-Free Video Encoding Netflix Meet-up - YouTube

[DanBa]

The Chromecast Ultra streaming media player should be compatible with HDR10 (officially announced), Dolby Vision (officially announced), VP9-PQ YouTube HDR and hopefully VP9-HLG YouTube HDR:

Dolby Vision file >> Internet >> Dolby Vision compliant Chromecast Ultra > Dolby Vision uncompressed video >> Dolby Vision compliant TV

Dolby Vision Profile 6 file >> Internet >> Dolby Vision compliant Chromecast Ultra > CTA HDR10 uncompressed video >> HDR10 compliant TV

Dolby Vision Profile 0/2/4 file >> Internet >> Dolby Vision compliant Chromecast Ultra > SDR uncompressed video >> SDR TV

HDR10 file >> Internet >> HDR10 compliant Chromecast Ultra > CTA HDR10 uncompressed video >> HDR10 compliant TV

VP9-PQ file stored on YouTube cloud >> Internet >> VP9-PQ compliant Chromecast Ultra > CTA HDR10 uncompressed video >> VP9-PQ YouTube HDR compliant TV

VP9-PQ file stored on YouTube cloud >> Internet >> VP9-PQ compliant Chromecast Ultra > CTA HDR10 uncompressed video >> HDR10 compliant TV




http://www.dolby.com/us/en/technolog...les-levels.pdf

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Richard Paul

The ITU is much more open than MPEG/SMPTE but sadly they still keep their working documents behind a firewall.

Sorry there is no free public access for you guys without qualified clearance, but I can tell you that the document database is but one part of the overall process. To appreciate the total picture, the informal meetings with the sub working group chairman and the formal membership meetings are where all the real action takes place (items are discussed, challenged, approved (https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...+#post12206957 ) , etc.

In fact, before the final plenary meeting of the video group, the Chair of the video group met with heads of delegations from the United Kingdom, the United States, France, the Netherlands, France and Japan to discuss concerns that had been raised about some of the content in the proposed new HDR-TV draft recommendation which led to this -

[Penton-Man]

b.t.w, after rechecking the specific ITU Contribution which I referenced in the bottom quote on the last page - https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...l#post12868423, namely -




to be precise, the body of that milestone report from the USA is indeed about 80 pages, however, it also consists of an additional 15 pages of Appendices.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by DanBa

[Show spoiler]

http://www.dolby.com/us/en/technolog...les-levels.pdf

To digress for a second, the last entry in that table confirms that DV on UHD Blu will be formed of a BDMV HDR compatible base layer and the DV enhancement layer, with the enhancement layer only being a quarter of the size of the base layer. I see none of those profiles are encoded as 12-bit, is there no 12-bit profile for HEVC yet? Sorry if that seems like a dumb question but these facts and figures make my head spin most of the time.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Richard Paul

The ITU is much more open than MPEG/SMPTE but sadly they still keep their working documents behind a firewall.

In terms of secrecy, the HDMI Forum puts everyone else to shame. They won’t announce to the public when/if the final draft of the feature set for the next HDMI version is ratified, much less even defined.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

To digress for a second,

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Got a link to Stacey's findings re: the separate tone mapping and clipping modes?....

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

I do not. I received the info word-of-mouth several weeks ago, but I will ask if there is anything else available or confirmatory on the Z9D mode topic. I’ll get back to you later on....

Later on is now:





^ Even if there is a misunderstanding and there is no discrete tone mapping mode, fact remains with its hard clip mode, the Z9D makes a fine alternative to the pricey BVM for aspiring HDR YouTube content creators…..and more HDR YouTubes spreads public awareness of the format.

[Penton-Man]

I notice Robert Z. has clocked in on this page. Does anyone know what happened with the ‘must happen event’ (2nd shootout) that Robert mentioned…. https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...n#post12459604

Has it happened? Is there a thread somewhere on other sections of our forum discussing it?

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by DanBa

I am not directly concerned, but my feelings go out to you.

To digress for a second, Oh you will be Dan. No matter what your economic status, everyone here will be if Wall Street bankers are again allowed to engage in proprietary trading and it comes time (4…8 ? years from now) to pay the piper (yet again) like with what happened during the financial crisis of ’08.

Stay vigilant!

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Later on is now:

thank you mr P. I won't bug you further as how those modes are differentiated on the TV's settings as I should really be asking Stacey about all this, but them thar AVS threads are a joyless slog most of the time.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

thank you mr P. I won't bug you further as how those modes are differentiated on the TV's settings as I should really be asking Stacey about all this, but them thar AVS threads are a joyless slog most of the time.

He's a member here too. PM him. I'd imagine he'll eventually check his inbox.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

He's a member here too. PM him. I'd imagine he'll eventually check his inbox.

Eh, I was hoping for a quick one-line answer or link 'cause I can't be bothered to chase anyone over it, it's not like I'm getting a new TV any time soon because there's waaaaaay too much bullshit going on with HDR right now.

[DanBa]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

To digress for a second, the last entry in that table confirms that DV on UHD Blu will be formed of a BDMV HDR compatible base layer and the DV enhancement layer, with the enhancement layer only being a quarter of the size of the base layer. I see none of those profiles are encoded as 12-bit, is there no 12-bit profile for HEVC yet? Sorry if that seems like a dumb question but these facts and figures make my head spin most of the time.

This is what I understand from the following documents:
http://www.google.ch/patents/US20140050271
https://www.smpte.org/sites/default/...-Ecosystem.pdf










(Leaving out the SDR base layer,) a Dolby Vision content is encoded in 12-bit PQ.

At the encoder stage level, the Dolby Vision signal is splitted into a base layer and an enhancement layer:
. Base layer = 10-bit "HDR10"
. Enhancement layer = 12-bit Dolby Vision – 10-bit "HDR10"
Dolby Vision base layer and Dolby Vision enhancement layer are encoded by standard 10-bit HEVC encoder.

At the 10-bit decoder stage level, the 12-bit Dolby Vision is recombined.
12-bit Dolby Vision = base layer + enhancement layer (+ metadata)

At the TV stage level, the 12-bit Dolby Vision video signal (i.e. EDR Video + EDR Metadata) is processed by a Dolby Vision Display Management.
The Dolby Vision display manager is tuned for the target TV (i.e. "SMPTE ST 2094 adaptation for consistent visual").

[Geoff D]

Sure, the eventual 12-bit output is reconfigured by merging the two layers in a BL/EL encode, I get that.

I just wondered if there was a 12-bit HEVC profile so that a single-layer 12-bit DV stream would be possible, it doesn't seem to be available at the moment according to that table.

[FilmFreakosaurus]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Sure, the eventual 12-bit output is reconfigured by merging the two layers in a BL/EL encode, I get that.

I just wondered if there was a 12-bit HEVC profile so that a single-layer 12-bit DV stream would be possible, it doesn't seem to be available at the moment according to that table.

I look at it like DTS and Dolby lossless codecs. They both use base + extension data = final output. It's how Dolby Atmos and DTS: X can reside on Blu-ray's and still remain backwards compatible. For Dolby TrueHD, they stack stereo, 5.1, 7.1, and Atmos like Russian nesting dolls. For DTS Coherent Acoustics, it's lossy core + lossless extensions + DTS: X extensions.

If they chose to go with a straight core only codec, they would have to scrap everything and start over. All previous products would be rendered obsolete.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by FilmFreakosaurus

I look at it like DTS and Dolby lossless codecs. They both use base + extension data = final output. It's how Dolby Atmos and DTS: X can reside on Blu-ray's and still remain backwards compatible. For Dolby TrueHD, they stack stereo, 5.1, 7.1, and Atmos like Russian nesting dolls. For DTS Coherent Acoustics, it's lossy core + lossless extensions + DTS: X extensions.

If they chose to go with a straight core only codec, they would have to scrap everything and start over. All previous products would be rendered obsolete.

Sure, I understand that part too. But I've seen Dolby peeps mention in interviews that they also had single-layer solutions too (for specific needs by vendors) and there is indeed one in that chart. And it's not like the UHD Blu iteration (or even the CTA-mandated version) will be the SDR + HDR utopia, happily co-existing side by side, that Dolby keep pushing whenever they do any corporate mouthpiece type events, so plenty of SDR products out there are obsolete anyway. C'est la vie.

[PeterTHX]

Originally Posted by Richard Paul

I guess all the royalty problems with HEVC are making VP9 a lot more popular.

More likely Google's YouTube app is an extremely popular (read: must have) app for all smart TVs so they need Google's decoder for that.