HDR Discussion Thread

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by Vincent Teoh

Hi guys, I have tried posting in reply to Penton-Man and Geoff D's screenshots several times over the past 10 days, but my posts were somehow referred for moderation and never published.

Warmest regards
Vincent

Did some comparisons of Episode 5 of the Mando, again it looked quite lovely to my eyes, watching the HDR10 stream on the OPPO 203 into the ZD9. These are photos, and photos come with their own problems re: exposure so they aren't exact representations of either SDR or HDR but for non-scientific - though perhaps more 'real world'? - comparative purposes they're worth a gander. **Pics and descriptions contain spoilers for Episode 5 of The Mandalorian**

This site seems to really hate linking to framecompare.com so again I've had to break the links to get the post to actually be posted. Click on them and add the missing 'w' from the web address to get to the comparisons.

http://www.framecompare.com/image-co...rison/DG66GNNX

1) more highlight detail on the ship and the explosion 2) that little spark on Baby's shawl is so much brighter in HDR 3) again, bright sparks, more highlight information on Baby's head


http://ww.framecompare.com/image-com...rison/JEMMMNNU

1) so much more highlight detail it's not even funny, HDR isn't that dark in the shadows it's just the exposure 2) the explosion on the engine is brighter and better defined in HDR, plus there's more definition inside the glowing orange engines 3) frying tonight!


http://ww.framecompare.com/image-com...rison/DG66PNNX

1) matey's ship exploding, such beautiful colour in the HDR 2) oh look, there's actually a sun in the top left (though technically that's a continuity error as Tatooine should have two ) 3) way better colour and range than the dull-ass SDR version, not the exact same frame but it doesn't matter here


http://ww.framecompare.com/image-com...rison/JEMMCNNU

1) better colour and range on the SDR 2) Mando lighting the flare, much less blown out and much improved colour volume on the HDR 3) Ming-na's character looking through her binocs, even here the SDR is wiping out those streaks of colour


http://ww.framecompare.com/image-com...rison/DG6PLNNX

1) another flare being let off, again it's much less blown out and more colourful 2) matey shooting Ming-na, not an amazing improvement but subtle enhancements to the light 3) Mando letting off the flare inside the hanger (more of these to follow in next comparison)


http://ww.framecompare.com/image-com...rison/DG6P7NNX

1) Mando's flare 2) and again 3) blinded by the light

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Scottishguy

Small world like. I live in Gorgie. What decade was that? I can imagine it was a rather rough experience if it was the 70s or 80s lol. World class stadiums? Nah, concrete terraces, chain link fencing, pitches that look like a WW1 battlefield. Food and drink? Suspect pies washed down with bovril. But the more discerning gentleman would probably have had a can of Tennants with a half naked lady printed on it. As the empty tin could be used as a toilet once it's been drank.

We were young teens standing I guess somewhere glassy-eyed in these pics -
http://www.thecelticwiki.com/page/19...Cup+-+Pictures

I wish I’d taken my camera with us as it was the very first soccer match I’d ever witnessed outside the U.S. The surrounding crowd were quite friendly and fun to be with when they learned we visiting Americans, i.e. something rather unique (to them) at said event I imagine.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Did some comparisons of Episode 5 of the Mando,

Episode 5 . Did I miss something? I thought this discussion was about Episodes 1 and 2 and the Fandom Menace reaction to those.

[LordoftheRings]

Originally Posted by Vincent Teoh

Hi guys, I have tried posting in reply to Penton-Man and Geoff D's screenshots several times over the past 10 days, but my posts were somehow referred for moderation and never published.

Warmest regards
Vincent

Hi Vincent, I'll ask Penton- Man and Geoff to mention you (Vincent Teoh) to the moderation team and administration as one important new member of this community for all our benefits. Your reputation preceeds you and it's essential that you are able to post and reply.

* Penton and Geoff, please tell the administration and leading moderators to free Vincent in replying. Thank you both for the great support you bring to this awesone community of videophiles.

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Hopefully, with it being offered on disc to collectors, there will be less pre-judgement as to the value of HFR with cinematic content by people who never saw the theatrical iteration to begin with but still criticized the look online. Nevertheless, I stand by what I previously said for a value which cannot be denied whether one is a fan or not of HFR for movies - https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...r#post16969054

First day purchase as I'm big on HFR and Ang Lee's camera style.
I wish some day to have 4K Blu-ray @ 120fps.

I know it's tough for the majority of people, as 3D is also; but there are videophiles among us for who technological advancements in motion pictures applied correctly and using the proper cameras are the future of cinema evolution.

[mrtickleuk]

Originally Posted by LordoftheRings

Hi Vincent, I'll ask Penton- Man and Geoff to mention you (Vincent Teoh) to the moderation team and administration as one important new member of this community for all our benefits. Your reputation preceeds you and it's essential that you are able to post and reply.

* Penton and Geoff, please tell the administration and leading moderators to free Vincent in replying. Thank you both for the great support you bring to this awesone community of videophiles.

I strongly hope it'll be possible to unblock the posts that Vincent made that are still now stuck in moderation limbo? They were undoubtedly detailed and thoughtful.

[Mierzwiak]

Marriage Story on Netflix, shot on 35mm, is another example of pointless HDR grade.

Yes, it looks better than SDR, there's better contrast, blah blah blah, but there's literally nothing more here in terms of dynamic range. It's full of blown out highlights, and while I understand it might be artistic choice, but what's the point of HDR grade then?

SDR


Dolby Vision (it looks darker because of lowered exposure)

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Episode 5 . Did I miss something? I thought this discussion was about Episodes 1 and 2 and the Fandom Menace reaction to those.

I'm just carrying on with Mando comparisons regardless. Might as well post them in here.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by Mierzwiak

Marriage Story on Netflix, shot on 35mm, is another example of pointless HDR grade.

Yes, it looks better than SDR, there's better contrast, blah blah blah, but there's literally nothing more here in terms of dynamic range. It's full of blown out highlights, and while I understand it might be artistic choice, but what's the point of HDR grade then?

SDR

[Show spoiler]

Dolby Vision (it looks darker because of lowered exposure)

[Show spoiler]

If that's what the content creators prefer then so be it. I see this whole SDR vs HDR thing as being akin to the debates around film vs digital, we all know the benefits of the newer format but if the older one is more attuned to the aesthetic that the filmmakers prefer then who are we to argue? Filmmakers may still be forced to emulate the former version in the latter which may negate the benefits of the latter, but it is what it is.

[Streetlight]

What is the Maximum Frame-Average Light Level of a SDR Blu-ray?

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by LordoftheRings

reputation

one's reputation is only as good as one's last communication/post and for the better informed, this is a good one -
Alexis’s thoughts from yesterday about The Mandalorian – http://vanhurkman.com/wordpress/?p=3865

and elaborating a bit more on the concept I introduced to another professional calibrator, D-Nice, about 3 weeks ago here – https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...s#post17065652 as my time is limited in terms of explainin these days

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

I'm just carrying on with Mando comparisons regardless. Might as well post them in here.

I see, no problem. I thought I missed something quickly skimming the previous pages.
Riding time now before another wave of rain....15 min. to get to the staging area

[Ray Jackson]

Do regular Blu-rays look better when played in a 4K player, without a 4K television?

...the way that DVDs look slightly better in a Blu-ray player?

[Vincent Teoh]

@Geoff D: The OPPO 203 doesn't have any internal apps, so how are you comparing SDR vs HDR versions of the Mandalorian? If you are downloading episodes (is there any legal way of doing this?), then how can you be sure that the SDR version is indeed the original source file, and hasn't been tampered with by the uploader?

Adam and I have been doing our analysis at source, and will hopefully present more findings that support our assertion that Mandalorian's "HDR" is more akin to SDR than HDR.

@Penton-Man: I have previously replied to your claim of no colour shift on the Sony HX310 off-axis, but my forum post seemed to have been swallowed up by the mods. I have actually measured the HX310's off-axis colour shift, and captured it on video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Ee7...utu.be&t=8m55s

Also, Panasonic engineers privately admitted that the off-axis colour shift on their existing DMCL panel (which is sold to Sony Professional to be put on the HX310) was a problem, which led them to develop the "MegaCon" prototype with better viewing angle. It's even written in their brochure:

Furthermore, unlike other smaller dual panel LCD displays, based on feedback from the Hollywood community, it also features a very wide viewing angle without any loss of colour fidelity...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BCjM...utu.be&t=2m44s

Re subdued HDR grade being the creative intent, all I'm going to say is this. I have frequently criticised TVs that have low peak brightness for not delivering true HDR; I have repeatedly asserted that domestic projectors have no way of achieving meaningful HDR due to low light output (relative to direct-view displays); so why should I suddenly refrain from criticising HDR content that does not deliver impactful HDR, that appears to be just an elementary SDR conversion?

Unlike some colourists and armchair experts who deal only with £30k+ OLED/ dual LCD mastering monitors, perhaps with a consumer OLED as client reference monitors, I see all kinds of displays - budget, midrange, high-end - in my line of work. And the practice of using an HDR container to deliver SDR-esque creative intent just results in a poor viewing experience.

The creative community need to start understanding that on non-OLED displays, HDR is a zero-sum game. If you send an HDR metadata to an HDR-capable television, HDR mode is triggered, almost always irreversibly. Backlight goes up to maximum, and consequently blacks brightens up, clouding and flashlighting become more apparent, there's more blooming, colours become more washed out, power consumption goes up. Why should a viewer suffer these shortcomings to get an SDR-like experience, when they can watch in SDR without these shortcomings in the first place?

The gold-standard HDR mastering monitors in Hollywood are at least 1000 nits in peak brightness. Netflix specifies at least 1000 nits peak brightness for Dolby Vision/ HDR grading monitors. Ultra HD Premium certification (as pointless as the test methodology is) requires 1000 nits peak brightness from LCDs; 540 nits from OLEDs. Why is it that we place such demands on the hardware side; yet are willing to turn a blind eye to the software side (i.e. content), conveniently sweeping subdued HDR grade and "fake HDR" conversion under the carpet of "creative intent"? It's all the more frustrating when you see fabulous HDR grades of older films such as Wizard of Oz, The Shining, Alien and the original Blade Runner.

Someone emailed me saying that Schindler's List is not "fake colour". Yeah, but then watching a black-and-white film in SDR doesn't worsen the blacks, backlight uniformity, blooming, colour fidelity and power consumption on a transmissive display. Unlike watching a show with 300-400 nits peak and paper white <80 nits in HDR.

Warmest regards
Vincent

[Vincent Teoh]

Replied in detail to Geoff D & Penton-Man, but still got this message: "Vincent Teoh
Thank you for posting! Your post will not be visible until a moderator has approved it for posting."

[Scottishguy]

Originally Posted by Vincent Teoh

Replied in detail to Geoff D & Penton-Man, but still got this message: "Vincent Teoh
Thank you for posting! Your post will not be visible until a moderator has approved it for posting."

Did you paste the links to said screenshots using the boards image URL option?

It might be, if you are indeed just posting links, that your post count is to low. So it's directing your posts to the moderators to confirm they are not spam.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Mierzwiak

Marriage Story on Netflix, shot on 35mm, is another example of pointless HDR grade.

Yes, it looks better than SDR, there's better contrast, blah blah blah, but there's literally nothing more here in terms of dynamic range. It's full of blown out highlights, and while I understand it might be artistic choice, but what's the point of HDR grade then?

By that logic, given the traffic situation in thee OC - https://patch.com/california/orange-...fic-congestion nobody should ever purchase a Bugatti - https://www.facebook.com/BugattiNewportBeach/

again, ICYMI - http://vanhurkman.com/wordpress/?p=3865

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Vincent Teoh

Replied in detail to Geoff D & Penton-Man, but still got this message: "Vincent Teoh
Thank you for posting! Your post will not be visible until a moderator has approved it for posting."

I likely won’t check in again for a week or two but meanwhile Geoff can hold his own, except I think if you reply in Mandarin - https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...n#post12862020

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Streetlight

What is the Maximum Frame-Average Light Level of a SDR Blu-ray?

Has such a thing been mandated? - http://www.blu-raydisc.com/en/Techni...s/General.aspx

For SDR content, diffuse white is standardized by SMPTE (but not ITU) as code value 940 for a 10-bit world and 100 nits. There’s a good article about APL in this month’s SMPTE journal – https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpl/Rece...number=7261654

[Scottishguy]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

I likely won’t check in again for a week or two but meanwhile Geoff can hold his own, except I think if you reply in Mandarin - https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...n#post12862020

Geoff speaks Mandarin all the time to Noremac. Well it might as well be Mandarin, for all Nore comprehends.

[Vincent Teoh]

@Geoff D: The OPPO 203 doesn't have any internal apps, so how are you comparing SDR vs HDR versions of the Mandalorian? If you are downloading episodes (is there any legal way of doing this?), then how can you be sure that the SDR version is indeed the original source file, and hasn't been tampered with by the uploader?

Adam and I have been doing our analysis at source, and will hopefully present more findings that support our assertion that Mandalorian's "HDR" is more akin to SDR than HDR.

@Penton-Man: Re subdued HDR grade being the creative intent, all I'm going to say is this. I have frequently criticised TVs that have low peak brightness for not delivering true HDR; I have repeatedly asserted that domestic projectors have no way of achieving meaningful HDR due to low light output (relative to direct-view displays); so why should I suddenly refrain from criticising HDR content that does not deliver impactful HDR, that appears to be just an elementary SDR conversion?

Unlike some colourists and armchair experts who deal only with £30k+ OLED/ dual LCD mastering monitors, perhaps with a consumer OLED as client reference monitor, I see all kinds of displays - budget, midrange, high-end - in my line of work. And the practice of using an HDR container to deliver SDR-esque creative intent just results in a poor viewing experience.

The creative community need to start understanding that on non-OLED displays, HDR is a zero-sum game. If you send an HDR metadata to an HDR-capable television, HDR mode is triggered, almost always irreversibly. Backlight goes up to maximum, and consequently blacks brightens up, clouding and flashlighting become more apparent, there's more blooming, colours become more washed out, power consumption goes up. Why should a viewer suffer these shortcomings to get an SDR-like experience, when they can watch in SDR without these shortcomings in the first place?

The gold-standard HDR mastering monitors in Hollywood are at least 1000 nits in peak brightness. Netflix specifies at least 1000 nits peak brightness for Dolby Vision/ HDR grading monitors. Ultra HD Premium certification (as pointless as it is) requires 1000 nits peak brightness from LCDs; 540 nits from OLEDs. Why is it that we place such demands on the hardware side; yet are willing to turn a blind eye to the software side (i.e. content), conveniently sweeping subdued HDR grade and "fake HDR" conversion under the carpet of "creative intent"? It's all the more frustrating when you see fabulous HDR grades of older films such as Wizard of Oz, The Shining, Alien and the original Blade Runner.

Someone emailed me saying that Schindler's List is not "fake colour". Yeah, but then watching a black-and-white film in SDR doesn't worsen the blacks, backlight uniformity, blooming, colour fidelity and power consumption on a transmissive display. Unlike watching a show with 300-400 nits peak and paper white <80 nits in HDR.

Warmest regards
Vincent