HDR Discussion Thread

[bruceames]

Originally Posted by ray0414

Those are good questions and when the time is right in will ask the right people once they become informed on the new standards.

But I'm pretty sure that if samsungs hdr10 tvs can be updated, all other brands can too. So we'll all need to know those answers.

Hopefully they can too, wouldn't mind at all if the Sony 930/940c could be updated.

Well things just got a lot more interesting on the HDR front (as if it wasn't interesting enough already).

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by ray0414

Great video sir.

I kind of wish the press corps had a video clip available on vimeo or YouTube of the Sony demo at NAB 2016 which showed output with PQ, HLG and SDR compared side by side, as I think that also would have been informative for those not having the opportunity to attend the show because live content will drive HDR adoption.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by ray0414

Those are good questions and when the time is right in will ask the right people once they become informed on the new standards.

When I’m at liberty, I do what I can to release information before it becomes ‘official’ and other websites/forums do, e.g. https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...d#post12039620

Similarly, with regards to worldwide standards/solutions for HDR implementation, knowledgably discussing the lead up to the DNR ITU-R BT.[HDR-TV] with the solid membership here….. https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...l#post11839356

Now that the broadcast ball is rolling, a little past history for those not having qualified access to the respective ITU Working Party. For approximately the past 3 years there had been disagreement regarding the type of HDR system(s) for ITU recommendation. Three systems were submitted…. two PQ systems (USA and Philips), and the HLG system (BBC/NHK). In Feb., ITU-R BT.[HDR-TV] agreed upon a total of 2 systems….. the USA(Dolby) PQ system (defined by SMPTE ST 2084, ushered in by Dolby) and the HLG system (BBC/NHK).

As for movies (feature films), Sony coming out with a 55” 4K HDR OLED client monitor is a significant milestone (not to be underestimated), again to aid in HDR adoption.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

again to aid in HDR adoption.

For motion picture work, I might also mention Canon’s 4K on set monitor firmware upgrade(s) which were announced just prior to the NAB 2016 show and briefly mentioned in this presentation….https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QVQM...tu.be&t=15m34s

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

live content will drive HDR adoption.

NAB 2016: UHD Alliance's Victor Matsuda - YouTube

[Richard Paul]

Originally Posted by bruceames.

So HDR10 dynamic is a thing now?

SMPTE is currently working on four dynamic metadata systems for HDR. SMPTE 2094-10 (Dolby) gets most of the attention though SMPTE 2094-40 (Samsung) is a nice surprise since it will be free.

Originally Posted by bruceames.

That's great news, but wouldn't that compete with Dolby Vision? He says that Dolby was involved with developing this, can that be right?

I think Dolby had to make their dynamic metadata system into an open standard or there would be no chance of it getting used in the long term.

Originally Posted by bruceames.

I thought it was just Phillips and Technicolor.

Phillips is SMPTE 2094-20 and Technicolor is SMPTE 2094-30.

[gkolb]

Originally Posted by Richard Paul

SMPTE is currently working on four dynamic metadata systems for HDR. SMPTE 2094-10 (Dolby) gets most of the attention though SMPTE 2094-40 (Samsung) is a nice surprise since it will be free.

I think Dolby had to make their dynamic metadata system into an open standard or there would be no chance of it getting used in the long term.

Phillips is SMPTE 2094-20 and Technicolor is SMPTE 2094-30.

Is there good reason(s) to have 4 (or will there be more) competing versions of dynamic HDR metadata, or is this just the beginning of some newer format war??

If it is, will there be winners and losers at the high price of TV hardware? or will this be more of a firmware thing and we won't have to scramble over hardware upgrades???

(please, don't say hardware, don't say hardware, don't say hardware) Aargghhhh!

[JoeDeM]

Originally Posted by gkolb

Is there good reason(s) to have 4 (or will there be more) competing versions of dynamic HDR metadata, or is this just the beginning of some newer format war??

here's a quote from SMPTE document

This reflects the four detailed method disclosures received from Dolby, Philips, Technicolor, Samsung that are considered sufficiently different to make it impossible to rationalize into a single method.

[JoeDeM]

Here's a description of the different methods

2094-1 the core definitions document
• 2094-10 [Dolby] metadata for a tone mapping based on the source content characteristics and colorist adjustments.
• 2094-20 [Philips] metadata for a color transform based on a creatively set tone mapping curve and a luminance dependent saturation gain curve.
• 2094-30 [Technicolor] metadata for reference-based color volume remapping, derived from two grades of the same content.
• 2094-40 [Samsung] metadata for tone mapping and color saturation based on mastering and target displays peak luminances and content characteristics

[bruceames]

Four competing dynamic systems? Geez, no wonder why Sony/Samsung didn't include DV in their 2016 models.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Richard Paul

SMPTE is currently working on four dynamic metadata systems for HDR. SMPTE 2094-10 (Dolby) gets most of the attention though SMPTE 2094-40 (Samsung) is a nice surprise since it will be free....

That deserves a retrospective…….
Attention: New readers to Blu-ray.com or new readers to the more technical discussions in sub forums of Blu-ray.com -

Inquiring minds might ask: What makes this forum more cutting edge than any other AV website? Well, if one checks the dates, either Information is offered prior to official reports, e.g.…..
https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...t#post11151563

Or, when SMPTE STs are eventually published and the project(s) are completed, but their significance goes underappreciated by all AV social media posters on all audio video forums, here, on Blu-ray.com they are given a heads-up for re-emphasis…..
https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...+last+septembe

(note: I’ll send anyone $40. who can find a hobbyist Audio Video forum that referenced ST 2084 prior to Sept. 2014 as I would love to read such a well informed source which understood the significance of PQ at the time. Good luck with that.)

And with members like Richard we have discussions on new color spaces (preceding other hobbyist forums), e.g. last Feb. –
https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...c#post11886102

illustrated with pretty pictures when we can…..
https://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.p...postcount=7449

Lastly, despite the personal preferences of celebrity video gurus, we inform folks of where the industry is actually headed with newly planned projects….
https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...p#post12182633

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

personal preference

My personal preference?

To someday have picture quality not impaired with white out so I can actually see Steed and other members of Blu-ray.com in the stands (behind the goal or wherever) at their home park on a bright sunny day, hopefully while in the Premier league next year….

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

What makes this forum more cutting edge than any other AV website?

Because you’ll see a lot of other websites all over the internet frantically reporting/guruing in an after-the-fact manner on ST 2084, ST 2086, ST 2094, ICtCp and I would soon expect HLG after we’ve posted so much about it, when I guarantee you none of them are privy to, much less even aware of, informal meetings (regarding HDR) among ITU working group chairman from the US, BBC and Japan and what was agreed upon there, prior to the formal meetings.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

HLG

And, more importantly, we care about our other members. On that note, has anyone ? heard from raygendreau (one of our more senior members being in his 70’s).

See his post below the HLG underlined hyperlink to my old July 2015 post above. Checking his profile, I notice he still has not been around since Feb. 28th and I’m beginning to fear he is/or had experienced some serious calamity….it’s not like him to just disappear from Blu-ray.com. In case he doesn’t have a support system, I am fairly local to him (Orange County) and could possibly provide help if needed.

Anyone know anything about what's going on with Ray from Irvine?

[bruceames]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

And, more importantly, we care about our other members. On that note, has anyone ? heard from raygendreau (one of our more senior members being in his 70’s).

See his post below the HLG underlined hyperlink to my old July 2015 post above. Checking his profile, I notice he still has not been around since Feb. 28th and I’m beginning to fear he is/or had experienced some serious calamity….it’s not like him to just disappear from Blu-ray.com. In case he doesn’t have a support system, I am fairly local to him (Orange County) and could possibly provide help if needed.

Anyone know anything about what's going on with Ray from Irvine?

Yeah now that you mention it, hopefully he's just taking some time off or recuperating from something minor and will be back soon. His posts were always highly informative and appreciated.

[Richard Paul]

Originally Posted by gkolb

Is there good reason(s) to have 4 (or will there be more) competing versions of dynamic HDR metadata, or is this just the beginning of some newer format war??

It is partly due to technical differences and partly due to money. Dolby, Philips, and Technicolor would like to make money while Samsung would prefer not to spend money. It is a question mark which systems will be used. Optimistically if all of the companies are reasonable than all four SMPTE 2094 systems could be supported but it would really depend on the cost of doing that. It is also possible that different systems will be used in different countries.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

In Feb., ITU-R BT.[HDR-TV] agreed upon a total of 2 systems….. the USA(Dolby) PQ system (defined by SMPTE ST 2084, ushered in by Dolby) and the HLG system (BBC/NHK).

Specifically,
ITU-R Application 1 = PQ
ITU-R Application 2 = HLG

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

As for movies...

Not just big feature films like those listed here near the bottom of the page…http://www.dolby.com/us/en/platforms/dolby-cinema.html , but the word is getting out in the creative community and even a relatively small independent feature film like The Unwilling (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt4781446/ ) has plans for an HDR grade.

[nugget2016]

Originally Posted by ray0414

Great video sir.

A very important thing to come from that video is that he's been told that samsung tvs will be upgraded via FW to handle dynamic metadata. That certainly gives hope to alot of current hdr tv owners.


Edit: and another question. Will the Samsung 4k blu ray player be able to be apart of that chain with a FW update too?

hopefully my 2015 model js8500 can get the update, then again how much benefit will it have on an older model..

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

...And with members like Richard we have discussions on new color spaces (preceding other hobbyist forums), e.g. last Feb. –
https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...c#post11886102

illustrated with pretty pictures when we can…..
https://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.p...postcount=7449

After I posted thee above ^, someone asked me in PM for a descriptive source in order to learn more about ICtCp. I don’t recall who it was as t had to quickly delete a load of PMs for I’d exceeded my 1,000 PM limit after receiving that inquiry. Sorry for not remembering who you were, but if said inquirer is tracking my posts, here’s a reference for you and those with interest….. http://wwwen.zte.com.cn/endata/magaz...4995790791.pdf

(includes a very brief preamble about the MPEG HDR/WCG AhG and the human visual system in regards to color perception).