HDR Discussion Thread

[2themax]

Originally Posted by HeatEquation

Sure, technically HDR10 will still be the "base" layer, because it would be embedded in the HDR10+ layer.

Originally Posted by HeatEquation

You can also think of it as an upgrade of the mandatory base layer, rather than an outright replacement.

That's called option not embedded or upgrade.

[HeatEquation]

Originally Posted by 2themax

That's called optionally not embedded or upgrade .

Scott Wilkinson was the one who used the term embedded when describing HDR10+ and its backwards compatibility. I was just reiterating what he said.

Let's suppose it was mandated to be the base layer. Then it wouldn't really be optional, would it? Studios would be required to include both the dynamic metadata and the static metadata (for the DV enhancement layer to sit on top of) as part of the HDR10+ stream.

[DanBa]

Originally Posted by HeatEquation

...
It still makes sense to say that HDR10+ would become the mandatory base layer, because it would mean that HDR10+ would be on every disc that contained HDR. It's more precise, and it would be a big deal.

This argument can be used in favour of Dolby Vision.

Dolby Vision is more future-proofed thanks to its 12-bit PQ encoding while using the industry standard 10-bit HEVC coding.

And for the time being, "more bits" means less noises: the Sony Z9D has a 14-bit internal video processing.

[2themax]

Originally Posted by HeatEquation

...Studios would be required to include both the dynamic metadata and the static metadata (for the DV enhancement layer to sit on top of) as part of the HDR10+ stream.

This is literally defining HDR10+ as optional and there is no need to change the current spec per your argument.

[JustinLH1125]

So this may be a bit of a dumb question (and I'm not sure if this is even the right place to ask) but, I have an Xbox One S and I use it to play my 4K Blu-rays and I've never had any issues until I tried to play Spider-Man (2002). It did the same thing with it's HDR that Netflix seems to do when I try to play something like The Defenders. It causes my screen to dim to near darkness on my Hisense 55 inch 55H8C.

None of my other HDR enhanced 4K BRs had this problem so I tried to research the answer and came up with next to nothing short than having people say to turn off HDR or try High Contrast Mode (which turns menus to garbage; especially in OneGuide). So I was wondering if there was any sort of work-around to help me with my issue so that I can really experience the difference in my movies and Netflix content. Is it really worth it for Netflix if my screen darkens and none of the colors really pop and I can't truly experience HDR on any movie? Sorry for such a noobish question.

[Staying Salty]

Originally Posted by HeatEquation

You're free to think that it's nonsense, however, this is a person who has proven in the past to have solid sources that have given him accurate information.

Various exchanges on the AVSforum.

Originally Posted by Rudy1

Earlier this month I asked Samsung execs to request of Amazon that they improve their search function to make UHD/HDR content easy to find,..

Originally Posted by Lineproduct

Given your contacts at Samsung, is there any way for you to get your hands on any HDR10+ demos?

Originally Posted by Lineproduct

Cool, thanks! Do you know if Amazon is still expecting to add HDR10+ content by the end of the month? It would mean they'd have to release it by week's end.

Rudy1 response to your post.

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/465-hi...l#post54705166

8/28/17 ^

Originally Posted by Rudy1

It's my understanding that they "expect" to have HDR10+ content available by the end of this week.

This is the information ^ that was conveyed to him and is obviously erroneous.

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/465-hi...l#post54730426

9/1/17 ^

Originally Posted by Rudy1

According to an email exchange between Amazon & Samsung that was shared confidentially with me, Amazon does not feel it's necessary to specifically identify which of their titles are HDR10 and which are HDR10 Plus. I also learned that they have not yet formally advised Samsung as to what sort of promotional advertising they have in mind for the launch of the new format.

This ^ and the above posts show his level of contact with Samsung.

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/465-hi...l#post54748320

9/5/17 ^

Originally Posted by Rudy1

According to my sources at Samsung, Amazon is supposed to make an announcement soon on the launch of the HDR10 Plus service.

It has been almost two months since this ^ post. The information ^ that was conveyed to him is obviously inaccurate.

These posts conclusively demonstrate that Rudy1’s “sources” are not always as precise or accurate as you have mistakenly stated.

[HeatEquation]

Originally Posted by 2themax

This is literally defining HDR10+ as optional and there is no need to change the current spec per your argument.

How would it be optional if it would be mandated as a requirement?

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by HeatEquation

He's got contacts within several TV manufacturers, streaming services, AT&T the FCC, etc. I haven't seen every single one of his posts, as he's been a member there since 2002, but I don't see why it would be out of the realm of possibility that he has contacts within the BDA, especially since the board members are mostly comprised of tv manufacturers and movie studios.

So, the answer is no. You have no proof as to his being read in on what has transpired within the auspices of the BDA. Heat, although I prefer Dolby Vision (for technical reasons described in the past, long before hobbyists had even heard of the existence of Lars’s Drafting Group), I like and admire some of the people at Samsung, https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...i#post13285568

At this point, I really think you are doing more harm than good for the Samsung HDR10+ initiative. Meaning you are doing a disservice to what you are advocating.

[HeatEquation]

Originally Posted by Staying Salty

Various exchanges on the AVSforum.




Rudy1 response to your post.

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/465-hi...l#post54705166

8/28/17 ^


This is the information ^ that was conveyed to him and is obviously erroneous.

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/465-hi...l#post54730426

9/1/17 ^



This ^ and the above posts show his level of contact with Samsung.

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/465-hi...l#post54748320

9/5/17 ^


It has been almost two months since this ^ post. The information ^ that was conveyed to him is obviously inaccurate.

These posts conclusively demonstrate that Rudy1’s “sources” are not always as precise or accurate as you have mistakenly stated.

None of this is inaccurate information. It was announced way back in April that Amazon would launch HDR10+ sometime between July and December. Therefore, Samsung expected/estimated that it the launch could happen in August, without being told by Amazon, and so they conveyed that to him.

You participate on that forum. Feel free to question his sources directly, by posting your concerns over there.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Remind me, did you have an op on it or something?

Yeah, surger-ized. I swear it’s getting to a point where I have had as many body parts operated on....as have not. Mama, don’t let your boys grow up to be weekend warriors.

Anyway, the only redeeming thing I can think of is that I’m not allergic to any of the popular forms of anesthesia. (knock on wood) and I hate what oxcod or hydrocodon does to my REM sleep so I never have to worry about becoming addicted to opioids.

[JoeDeM]

Originally Posted by HeatEquation

Oh, and from an insider on AVS Forum:

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/465-hi...l#post55051930

So does that mean that they may choose not to add it?

[HeatEquation]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

So, the answer is no. You have no proof as to his being read in on what has transpired within the auspices of the BDA. Heat, although I prefer Dolby Vision (for technical reasons described in the past, long before hobbyists had even heard of the existence of Lars’s Drafting Group), I like and admire some of the people at Samsung, https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...i#post13285568

At this point, I really think you are doing more harm than good for the Samsung HDR10+ initiative. Meaning you are doing a disservice to what you are advocating.

If he turns out to be wrong, I'll consider disregarding his info from now on. Until then, given his track record, I won't pretend that the BDA is some secret society that a person who is well connected within the industry can't gain access to.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Salty, as far as content providers learning about the advantage(s) of ICtCp, that particular meeting in early 2016 included, if memory serves, knowledgeable representatives from Disney, Technicolor, Apple, Samsung, BBC, Netflix, Dolby, of course and MovieLabs - http://movielabs.com/who-we-are/partners/ some attendees of which actually participated in challenging various aspects of ICtCp, so it’s not like this is totally new to CTOs of studios and other content providers. Even some gamer dudes work with it.

Finishing out the above ^ post, after having time to check past notes, specifically:

It was asked what the coding efficiency effect of this was. A participant said there was a significant improvement from it. There had been a previous CE in which this was studied along with other technical changes. There had been a plan to include this in the prior CE5, but that had not been followed through due to resourcing issues and the higher prioritization of standardizing this in ITU-R, which has had progress reported in incoming LSs.

A participant asked about whether comparison had minimized subsampling effects of chroma on luma in the comparison, and this had not been done – the subsampling used a simple [1 6 1]/8 filter (with both colour domains).

Another participant questioned whether the details of the scheme were fully stable and were assured to be approved in ITU-R. Some assurances were made in that regard, saying that it was technically stable and unlikely to change, although some reservation had been expressed within ITU-R and further study is being conducted there. It is a candidate for approval by correspondence in ITU-R as a Draft New Recommendation (and there is a closely related Technical Report).

Supporting ICTCP would involve adding a new value of matrix_coeffs. A participant commented that some additional or somewhat different specification method could be used, involving adding another set of color primaries to represent the equivalent of the transformation of the RGB primaries into a space known as LMS.

I should note that with regards to the next to the last paragraph ^ above, ICtCp was indeed eventually approved by ITU -R SG 6.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Yeah, surger-ized. I swear it’s getting to a point where I have had as many body parts operated on....as have not. Mama, don’t let your boys grow up to be weekend warriors.

Anyway, the only redeeming thing I can think of is that I’m not allergic to any of the popular forms of anesthesia. (knock on wood) and I hate what oxcod or hydrocodon does to my REM sleep so I never have to worry about becoming addicted to opioids.

I know, I had some morphine when I busted my leg but it made me feel so nauseous I didn't have any after that, just standard pain meds with a bit of gas and air while the doctor was reducing the fracture so they could put a cast on it to do the X-Ray. I was chatting away to them while they twisted the break back into place, one of the docs said they couldn't believe my pain threshold was so high.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

....MovieLabs - http://movielabs.com/who-we-are/partners/

Addendum update with regards to MovieLabs - http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/beh...ielabs-1042972

[2themax]

Originally Posted by HeatEquation

...I won't pretend that the BDA is some secret society that a person who is well connected within the industry can't gain access to.

You shouldn't. I'm one of them.

[2themax]

Originally Posted by HeatEquation

How would it be optional if it would be mandated as a requirement?

Then it wouldn't be optional. It would be required.

[HeatEquation]

Originally Posted by 2themax

You shouldn't. I'm one of them.

And unlike others, you kept an open mind about Rudy's post.

[DanBa]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

... Supporting ICTCP ...

"ICTCP is being deployed by OTT service providers as well as implemented by numerous consumer TV manufacturers."
https://www.ultrahdforum.org/wp-cont...ummer-2016.pdf

I wonder what are these OTT service providers.

As far as I understand, Netflix is not an OTT service provider.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by DanBa

"ICTCP is being deployed by OTT service providers as well as implemented by numerous consumer TV manufacturers."
https://www.ultrahdforum.org/wp-cont...ummer-2016.pdf

I wonder what are these OTT service providers.

As far as I understand, Netflix is not an OTT service provider.

It means 'Over The Top' and it directly relates to internet-based service providers, Netflix chief amongst them.