4K Blu-ray Confirmed, Coming in

[Dex Robinson]

Originally Posted by raygendreau

This is not very impressive. 8-10 f-stops is SDR territory.

Honestly, I'd be quite happy if HDR was so limited.

The potential for HDR abuse is scary. I've seen HDR being increasingley overused in still photography. When poorly done (and it often is) it sticks out like a sore thumb. HDR has the potential become the next processing bugaboo like DNR. Remember, the concept of digital noise reduction started out as a perfectly reasonable solution to limiting noise...until people figured they could use to fix everything from dirt to grain.

I fear HDR will turn into the fixit tool for all exposure issues and we may well end up with seriously weird looking transfers. 8-10 stops is plenty until I can be convinced that this technology won't be abused.

[Kris Deering]

As sad as it is, I'm going to probably be a big holdout for all of this. I'm usually one right at the forefront of a new tech, especially for video, but right now all the talk is just one limitation in front of another. I am a front projection guy and with my screen size (120") 1080p and 4K are nearly indistinguishable (I've compared them side by side in controlled tests). HDR sounds great but at the moment it looks like it will be a long time before we see anything approaching it in the front projection realm and flat panels don't appeal to me at all in terms of home cinema. Their cute for watching TV on in my family room, but they wouldn't even come close to satisfying my home theater.

If the rumors are true I will probably dip my toe and feed my current projector with UHD Blu-ray to get the benefits of increased chroma subsampling and bit depth (and hopefully more immersive audio titles) but it sounds like it will be awhile before I will come close to approaching the key benefits of this format. At least with Blu-ray I could take full advantage of everything it brought to the table from day 1.

[Dreamliner330]

I'd be able to see a 4K benefit with my 136" 2.35:1 screen.

4K will definitely be my next projector and Atmos my next receiver.

[Richard Paul]

Originally Posted by KidHorn

Panasonic supposedly had a working demo unit back in January.

My guess is that the prototype player used very expensive FPGA chips.

Originally Posted by sonicyogurt

High Def Digest put together a pretty funny faux-Q&A mocking the gaping void of information coming from the BDA recently.

The recent BDA interview about Ultra HD Blu-ray was a fluff piece and worth mocking though this article is a bit negative. Ultra HD Blu-ray is going to be a harder sell than Blu-ray but I think it has potential (depending on cost and DRM).

Originally Posted by Kris Deering

I don't read it as Josh isn't a fan. I read it as Josh isn't a fan of the way it is being (or not being) rolled out at the moment. Little to no useful information and what little information is out there comes off as hedging. I also agree with him that for most users the difference between 4K resolution and 2K resolution will be fleeting at best.

One thing that strikes me as comical about all this is Hollywood is saying that 4K is a good thing yet we continue to see movie after movie released theatrically in 2K on screens that are far bigger than anything you'll get at home and no one is complaining about the resolution or pixel structure. Even films shot in 4K! There are a lot of theaters in my area with 4K projectors too. If the benefits are so overwhelming than why aren't they using it, even on big budget productions?? It starts to come off as do as I say not as I do. And one can't help but think this will all end with UHD Blu-rays that are 90% or more upscales of 2K DIs for a premium price.

It does seem like the studios are hoping that most people won't care/know about 4K video and that they can just upscale their movies to 4K.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Kris Deering

As sad as it is, I'm going to probably be a big holdout for all of this. I'm usually one right at the forefront of a new tech, especially for video, but right now all the talk is just one limitation in front of another. I am a front projection guy and with my screen size (120") 1080p and 4K are nearly indistinguishable (I've compared them side by side in controlled tests)...

Sorry to hear that. Your reviews/opinion would have been worth a read. Kris, other than being an old dirt bike enthusiast , are you a fan, for example, of the beautiful game?

4K capture and exhibition has its benefits even if you can’t easily appreciate the difference with non-panoramic motion picture content shot with softer lenses. Where I’m going with this is that in covering the world’s most popular sport in 4K, you can see the movement of play better (field of view), which is what the whathifi blogger was pointing out when he said… you can now see the whole pitch in greater detail, all at once .

Perhaps someday, we here in the U.S. will get 4K football (world or American (NFL) fed live into our home theaters….if other providers show the same pioneering spirit as only a 2 year old broadcaster already has - http://svgeurope.org/blog/headlines/...elevision-era/

[PeterTHX]

Originally Posted by Kris Deering

I am a front projection guy and with my screen size (120") 1080p and 4K are nearly indistinguishable (I've compared them side by side in controlled tests).

A lot of people said the exact same thing about the first BDs against DVD. So many people in 2006-2008 or so swore they didn't see a difference between DVD and BD, especially since upconverting DVD players were cheap and plentiful.

4K is an evolving technology, I don't expect dramatic differences from prototype software.

[wiyosaya]

Originally Posted by FilmFreakosaurus

They will not. Current drives are for recordable BDXL media. These are stamped and are somewhat different in spec. Very possible that no one will be allowed to create UHD Blu-ray computer drives outside of a set top unit.

Assuming this is true, that sucks. I assume that it is content providers that are objecting - who else would? Certainly no one who currently uses a BR drive to watch legal BR Movies with legal software. I suppose I'll have to spring for an inferior UHD set top unit.

[kristoffer]

Originally Posted by sonicyogurt

High Def Digest put together a pretty funny faux-Q&A mocking the gaping void of information coming from the BDA recently.

This is great!

[Bluyoda]

Originally Posted by sonicyogurt

High Def Digest put together a pretty funny faux-Q&A mocking the gaping void of information coming from the BDA recently.

Brilliant!

[d514]

Originally Posted by Kris Deering

One thing that strikes me as comical about all this is Hollywood is saying that 4K is a good thing yet we continue to see movie after movie released theatrically in 2K on screens that are far bigger than anything you'll get at home and no one is complaining about the resolution or pixel structure.

2K projection looks much better than 35mm projection in most cases yet no one was complaining about 35mm. (Yes, I know 35mm has higher resolution than 2k but most theatrical prints were of low quality and 5-10 generations away from the negative...)

Originally Posted by Dex Robinson

My concern remains about production standard players and discs. I'm sure a half dozen engineers can breadboard a working demo unit. I just want to make sure a bunch of Chinese women can pump out working players with mass-produced parts.

I'm even more concerned about the discs themselves. I've heard very little about about disc production. I really want to know that discs are coming off commercial production equipment right now and are being tested.

Recordable triple layer media exists for a while now (BDXL) and while BDXL will probably not be compatible with UHD BD I'm pretty sure they will be very similar technically and the incompatibility is by design.
Also H265 is not that new anymore, Samsung's UHD TVs from 2014 and 2015 all can play H265 videos from external sources like HDDs.
Put these two things together and you have an UHD player...

[Dex Robinson]

Originally Posted by d514

Recordable triple layer media exists for a while now (BDXL) and while BDXL will probably not be compatible with UHD BD I'm pretty sure they will be very similar technically and the incompatibility is by design.

Well, that's nowhere near good enough.

As I've said, I need to know that there are UHD BD production standard discs currently coming off of commercial production equipment and that those discs are now undergoing testing (If UHD BD is to hit the market this year).


The fact that the technology exists and "...Put these two things together and you have an UHD player" isn't an acceptable state for a consumer technology that should to be on sale in three plus months.

So they know how to make triple layer media...but they just haven't done it for UHD BD yet. They know how to make a UHD BD player...they just haven't done it yet. That's not something that inspires confidence. Like I said earlier, I'm not buying something that has just been out of the lab for two weeks. There is a difference between being an "early adopter" and being a "beta tester".

I was checking out Blu-ray Discs for pre-order on amazon last night. I found a number of BDs being released in December of 2015 and January 0f 2016 already up for pre-order. Blu-ray already plans a four to five month lead time for some consumer products.

UHD BD hopes to start selling for the holiday season (which most of us define as beginning with U.S. Thanksgiving) in little more than three and a half months and we seem to have almost no knowledge about the state of real production capability and reliability. If this was February or March, I would be understanding about the scarcity of details. But, by now, this should be a tested and vetted technology. Maybe it is...maybe everybody is just keeping their mouths shut. I don't know.

[Spike M.]

Originally Posted by Kris Deering

As sad as it is, I'm going to probably be a big holdout for all of this. I'm usually one right at the forefront of a new tech, especially for video, but right now all the talk is just one limitation in front of another. I am a front projection guy and with my screen size (120") 1080p and 4K are nearly indistinguishable (I've compared them side by side in controlled tests). HDR sounds great but at the moment it looks like it will be a long time before we see anything approaching it in the front projection realm and flat panels don't appeal to me at all in terms of home cinema. Their cute for watching TV on in my family room, but they wouldn't even come close to satisfying my home theater.

If the rumors are true I will probably dip my toe and feed my current projector with UHD Blu-ray to get the benefits of increased chroma subsampling and bit depth (and hopefully more immersive audio titles) but it sounds like it will be awhile before I will come close to approaching the key benefits of this format. At least with Blu-ray I could take full advantage of everything it brought to the table from day 1.

Interesting.

When I visit my parents house, my brother and I always take full advantage of the home theater I built while I was still living there. At 120 inches, with the seats 11 feet from the screen, the limitations of 1080p are apparent. It doesn't look bad, but during high detail scenes, or brighter lighting schemes, the pixelation is subtly noticeable. If I project a still image or something like my computer desktop with it's small icons, the limitations become obnoxiously noticeable, though. Even doubling the resolution to 2.5K would likely resolve this. 4K's certainly overkill on most projection screens that aren't IMAX, but hey, why not?

Speaking of which, how does 4K hold up at the Boeing? Any visible pixelation in the brighter and higher detailed images?

[Wendell R. Breland]

Originally Posted by Dex Robinson

As I've said, I need to know that there are UHD BD production standard discs currently coming off of commercial production equipment and that those discs are now undergoing testing (If UHD BD is to hit the market this year).

Do you know who the major players are in Blu-ray Replication machine manufacture? I would wager that Sony is most likely the major player in terms of machine manufacture and Replication (Sony DADC). IMO, if they had a UHD BD pressing plant tested, up and running today most of us would never know it. That is typical of Sony.

[Geoff D]

Didn't you see the leaked minutes from the BOD 45 meeting? At the time of that meet in July 2014 there were no active 100GB replication lines (none had even been built at that stage), with only Sony indicating that they would be building a 100GB line which would not be made "commercially available" to other replicators. No other replication company (like Singulus) was willing to foot the eye-watering $17M bill for a 100,000 a day capacity 100GB line, not without significant investment from outside sources.

The BDA were well aware that 100GB discs would be needed by a high number of titles in order to make proper use of format-defining features like HDR without "creative compromises", so whether someone's stepped up in the interim to provide the funding, I don't know. It's a classic chicken and egg scenario; reading between the lines, no-one wants to pony up the cash for 100GB lines for what will be a niche format, but without 100GB discs UHD BD will be hobbled out of the gate and won't have any chance of relative success.

[Kris Deering]

Originally Posted by Spike M.

Interesting.

When I visit my parents house, my brother and I always take full advantage of the home theater I built while I was still living there. At 120 inches, with the seats 11 feet from the screen, the limitations of 1080p are apparent. It doesn't look bad, but during high detail scenes, or brighter lighting schemes, the pixelation is subtly noticeable. If I project a still image or something like my computer desktop with it's small icons, the limitations become obnoxiously noticeable, though. Even doubling the resolution to 2.5K would likely resolve this. 4K's certainly overkill on most projection screens that aren't IMAX, but hey, why not?

Speaking of which, how does 4K hold up at the Boeing? Any visible pixelation in the brighter and higher detailed images?

What projector are you using at the house? My guess is an LCD and what you're seeing is a limitation of the resolution but the projector. You have to be within arms length of the screen to see the pixel structure of my projector (JVC X700) and I have 20/10 vision.

2K resolution in cinemas hasn't been an issue for pixel structure on any but the largest screens.

[Kris Deering]

Originally Posted by d514

2K projection looks much better than 35mm projection in most cases yet no one was complaining about 35mm. (Yes, I know 35mm has higher resolution than 2k but most theatrical prints were of low quality and 5-10 generations away from the negative...)

For the average joe maybe. I was complaining about the quality of prints for years by that time. Even the poor digital presentations in the beginning were welcome for the lack of print wear and tear. I don't care how good film can look, it only looks that good for a few moments.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by d514

2K projection looks much better than 35mm projection in most cases yet no one was complaining about 35mm. (Yes, I know 35mm has higher resolution than 2k but most theatrical prints were of low quality and 5-10 generations away from the negative.

Prints are fourth generation elements, even third generation for the movies that went straight from neg to CRI interneg, although if you're referring to the wear-and-tear that gets accumulated with the "5-10 generations" remark then that may not be far from the truth.

As Kris implied above, even the most cherry print wouldn't stay that way for long, and as much as people eulogise about the quality of film there are tangible reasons why 'only' 2K has become the de facto digital cinema standard; it's still resolving more detail than a 35mm release print (not just in terms of the measurable numbers but because you're essentially seeing the camera original thanks to the DI process), it's far more stable when projected (the judder and jitter of film projection subtly reducing the perceived detail yet further), and it being digital means it doesn't pick up dirt and scratches something chronic.

That doesn't mean that digital projection itself is infallible because all technology has its foibles - I had a showing of Winter Soldier crap out near the end - but you can be guaranteed that the movie will look as good at the end of its run as it did on that opening night, and that's no bad thing. People might well say that the blacks are quite thin on digital cinema projectors and that's also true in my experience, but then some of the thinnest blacks I've seen in recent times were on the 15/70 version of Interstellar so not even the king of film formats could help in that case.

[Wendell R. Breland]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Didn't you see the leaked minutes from the BOD 45 meeting? At the time of that meet in July 2014 there were no active 100GB replication lines (none had even been built at that stage), with only Sony indicating that they would be building a 100GB line which would not be made "commercially available" to other replicators.

Who is expecting 100GB disc out of the gate? IMO, not going to happen, first titles will be 50GB or 66GB disc. IIRC, LoA (217 min) was about 60GB via Sony FMP-X10 and SEN.

[Geoff D]

Wouldn't surprise me if Sony do with Lawrence what they did for the Japanese Mi4K Blu-ray and split it over two discs, maybe a 66GB and a 50GB with the split naturally coming at the movie's intermission.

As for 100GB, I think it's going to be increasingly important as things like HDR are embraced (which studios like Fox have already made a very public commitment to using) and the BDA are well aware of this. Sure, it wouldn't be the first format to have features or disc types come online months or even years later but it can't afford to wait that long, not with streaming making more headway with every single day that ticks by. UHD BD has got to hit the ground running and wow people from the start with its USPs, and that's going to be harder to do without 100GB support IMO.

[d514]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

That doesn't mean that digital projection itself is infallible because all technology has its foibles

Yes, when I went to the cinema to see Interstellar some guy came into the room when the movie was supposed to start and said they are having technical difficulties and the movie would start about 20 minutes later.
30 minutes later he came back and said he has been on the phone with Warner for half an hour and they were unable to send him the correct unlock code for the encrypted DCP. So I got my money back and could go home. Very annoying.

Originally Posted by Wendell R. Breland

Who is expecting 100GB disc out of the gate? IMO, not going to happen, first titles will be 50GB or 66GB disc. IIRC, LoA (217 min) was about 60GB via Sony FMP-X10 and SEN.

From what I've read there are no 50GB discs with UHD Blu-ray. Double Layer is supposed to be 66GB, triple layer is 100GB, nothing else is mentioned in the few bits of information we got.