HDMI 2.1: HDR Dynamic Metadata

[philochs]

Also, the metadata isn't data heavy. They'll be able to include HDR-10 basic, HDR-10 plus, and Dolby Vision, all on the same UHD-Blu Ray. Just like Netflix and Amazon will have a setup where you can swap between HDR settings.

[chaos215bar2]

Originally Posted by philochs

No word either way if 2016 models can get a firmware update, seems very doubtful to me though.

I agree it's doubtful 2016 models will se an upgrade, but I'd love to hear a real, technical reason why they couldn't — especially those that already support at least one form of dynamic HDR (though why a simple software update couldn't change the tone mapping curve each frame even on the remaining models is unclear). It's par for the course, but it's also a little tiring to see each year's TVs abandoned the moment there'a a new model to sell. How often does an older model TV even receive a security update?

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by philochs

Like the slogan for "Society of Motion Picture & Television Engineers" says, "We Set the Standard for Motion Imaging", in fact, they do....

Hah, you’re preaching to the choir here, tell that ^ to a couple parties in the working group who’ve complained that work is actually progressing too fast! on this -
http://www.tvtechnology.com/resource...in-2017/280125 , despite the fact that interoperability of its precursor (VSF TR-03 specification) was tested last year and demonstrated publicly at IBC 2016.

[img eL]

They haven't figured out hdmi 2.1 cables out yet?

http://www.bluejeanscable.com/articl...-cable-48g.htm

[puddy77]

Originally Posted by philochs

Actually, you're confusing SL-HDR1 which is for converting SDR material like a DVD into dynamic metadata with faux ST 2094, to actual ST 2094 which is the open standard developed by STMPE for HDR with dynamic range. SL-HDR1 is not ready for prime time just yet. Like the slogan for "Society of Motion Picture & Television Engineers" says, "We Set the Standard for Motion Imaging", in fact, they do...

You see, there are four different proprietary types of ST 2094. Dolby (ST 2094-10), Phillips (ST 2094-20), Samsung, and Technicolor each have a tweaked version of the base ST 2094 standard native to hdmi 2.1, but they'll all 4 have to playback the ST 2094 content. LG and Samsung 2017 tvs can both do ST 2094 HDR-10 with dynamic metadata. So far, LG uses the Technicolor HDR (ST 2094-30) and Samsung uses it's own just for it's own tv sets (ST 2094-40). in 2017 models they use special command sets to provide Dynamic HDR-10, but in 2018 they'll just use hdmi 2.1. No word either way if 2016 models can get a firmware update, seems very doubtful to me though. ST 2094 formats are numbered by the order they were created in, by the way. Also, all the original content will be encoded in Philips HDR 2094-20, and that is simply because the formats were testes and Philips HDR did the best job converting SDR to HDR, on the content creator's side. Amazon streaming is expected to launch streaming ST 2094-20 HDR-10 content w/ dynamic metadata sometime later this year. UHD Blu ray disks will almost certainly be adding ST-2094-20 as the new backwards compatible format by 2018-2019. It may get labeled something like "HDR PLUS"...

TV manufactures in 2018 are being suggested to carry Dolby Vision, Hybrid Log-Gamma, and ST 2094, also 120hz of course. Eventually when all SDR content can be watched using a "SL-HDR1" setting, then we'll have higher quality SDR to HDR conversion for DVD's and standard Blu-rays. SL-HDR1 is said to be "single layer", I have no idea how it works...

So LG is using Technicolor technology to upgrade non-dynamic HDR content like first generation UHD Blu Ray or HLG, but what we have to wait for still, is SL-HDR1 if you want to watch a DVD on standard blu-ray, and still get a realistic faux dynamic source, the technology maps your basic HDR content, and eventually even standard def material, on the fly.

SL-HDR1 is not a faux HDR upconversion, it is what they are now calling Technicolor HDR. As defined in ETSI TS 103 433 and briefly referred to in this UHD Forum white paper, it is a complete HDR transmission system that includes components of both ST 2094-20 and 2094-30. The source is mastered in both SDR and HDR. Then a single SDR stream is transmitted with HDR metadata to be reconstructed into an HDR signal if sent to an HDR display.

Technicolor does have a faux HDR upconversion process called Intelligent Tone Management. It is for use on the production side for broadcasters wanting to deliver HDR but do not have a complete HDR workflow yet. Intelligent Tone Management plus Technicolor HDR (SL-HDR1) come together as an end-to-end HDR production and distibution system called Advanced HDR by Technicolor.

I can't claim to know how "ready" SL-HDR1 is, but it is a completed and published standard. Although they are already working on an update. I do know it was tested at the Olympics and some baseball games, and demonstrated to the ATSC as a candidate for HDR distribution in ATSC 3.0.

Do you have a source proclaiming Philips' ST 2094-20 to be the new open source dynamic metadata that will eventually be applied to HDR10? I have never seen one. But I have seen sources say that is what Samsung's ST 2094-40 will be, this article being the most recent. And as you said, they are now calling it HDR 10+

Edit: I neglected to say that Technicolor ITM can be implemented in a display or set top box. I don't know if that's something that is in the 2017 LG oleds. It could be, maybe under another name. But it is separate from SL-HDR1.

[gkolb]

Originally Posted by img eL

They haven't figured out hdmi 2.1 cables out yet?

http://www.bluejeanscable.com/articl...-cable-48g.htm

Great article! Very insightful.

[Richard Paul]

Originally Posted by img eL

They haven't figured out hdmi 2.1 cables out yet?

http://www.bluejeanscable.com/articl...-cable-48g.htm

HDGuru talked with one of the HDMI developers and got a bit of technical detail on how HDMI 2.1 works. It sounds like 48G cables will either need to be fairly short or that they will need to include a signal amplifier in the cable.

https://hdguru.com/hdmi-2-1-to-bring...er-experience/

Originally Posted by puddy77

SL-HDR1 is not a faux HDR upconversion, it is what they are now calling Technicolor HDR. As defined in ETSI TS 103 433 and briefly referred to in this UHD Forum white paper, it is a complete HDR transmission system that includes components of both ST 2094-20 and 2094-30. The source is mastered in both SDR and HDR. Then a single SDR stream is transmitted with HDR metadata to be reconstructed into an HDR signal if sent to an HDR display.

I am a bit skeptical of how Technicolor HDR works. Dolby Vision makes sense in that you use a small amount of metadata to compress HDR to a lower brightness range. With Technicolor HDR though they are taking a small amount of metadata and trying to stretch out a SDR video signal by a factor of 100 times or more. Also Technicolor's marketing really seems to promote the idea that you don't need HDR sources to use Technicolor HDR.

http://www.sportsvideo.org/2016/09/1...to-sdr-signal/

[philochs]

Originally Posted by puddy77

Do you have a source proclaiming Philips' ST 2094-20 to be the new open source dynamic metadata that will eventually be applied to HDR10? I have never seen one. But I have seen sources say that is what Samsung's ST 2094-40 will be, and as you said, they are now calling it HDR 10+

It's in the Philips white paper from the first post in this thread. It mentions that MPEG (The Moving Picture Experts Group) tested all of the ST 2094 encoding plugin tools, and that they selected 2094-20 as the best one to encode UHD BD media with. Since it's the MPEG and BDA approved method of encoding, I thought that Amazon Prime would use their SDK too, since they're to be first to debut HDR+ later this year, but now I was able to find otherwise...

"Samsung, who has worked the development of the ST 2094 format (it’s open source) has released their SDK to content producers. Amazon is starting to optimize the supply chain, with the first in HDR10 + series that should arrive on Amazon Video platform by the middle of 2017. Netflix, also very attentive to this kind of innovation, should follow shortly.
The HDR10 + is backward compatible in any case: if you have a normal HDR TV, you'll see images with the static curve, but if you have a new TV able to utilize ST 2094 you'll be able to enjoy the dynamic metadata of HDR+

In addition to the confusion, there is another aspect to be emphasized when talking about HDR: a little ‘how to 4K, there is a real risk that many films fail to return a yield optimal. “ Today, companies often give up releasing UHD media created from true 4K masters in order to save time and money, says an insider, and HDR10 + requires a scene-by-scene processing if you want to do an excellent job. And ‘an expense that many do not want to deal with, so it is likely that the detection will be done with machine learning systems and artificial intelligence, scene analysis systems that decide autonomously what must be light and what not. In this way, however, you risk creating a different result from that wanted . “

Lol to what that "insider" said, I'm sure they'll give films a look over and fix any errors caused by the automated dynamic metadata software. But it does seem Amazon Prime and Netflix are indeed using the ST 2094-40 sdk, while UHD Blu-Ray is using the ST 2094-20 SDK. Maybe they'll use different plugins for different streaming services or different shows, because there are indeed 4 ST 2094 plugins that exist to encode HDR+, and they are indeed free and open source.

Under the standardization status, it states that Philps dynamic HDR+ (ST 2094-20) was chosen as part of the original spec for UHD Blu-ray, due to MPEG's BD disk encode test results. Dolby Vision and Philips HDR+ are the only two optional parts of the UHD Blu-Ray spec, so that's the way it will stay unless they actually update the spec again. If they were going to, it would be to add 4k 3d, not 2094-40, but the chances of them adding 4k 3d seem wildly unlikely considering the demise of 3d outside of projectors. Dolby Vision is launching on UHD BD this year, HDMI 2.1 "HDR+" products will launch next year. At least then the UHD Blu Ray spec will be complete until the next disk format.

People questioned if UHD BD would tank, but it's selling awesome. If it had bombed, I wonder if we'd be seeing the optional formats being added so soon. Now there's pressure to provide a better product, because static HDR10 washes out the picture, and dynamic HDR10+ won't. I'm hoping now that UHD is a sales machine, maybe we'll get waves of catalog titles next year. I want UHD BD to explode. I want to hear about an old b&w film on UHD blu-ray from a 4k(or higher) scan of a negative. I'm glad most old films have not been released yet, so hopefully when they do get released, they'll have HDR+ standard, and many will come with DV added.

Standardization status

BDA: Philips HDR is one of the HDR technologies for UltraHD Blu-ray.

SMPTE: The Philips dynamic metadata set is standardized as ST 2094-20.

HDMI/CEA: HDMI 2.0a covers HDR EOTF signaling and static metadata. Dynamic metadata is expected
to be covered in a future version of HDMI. (HDMI 2.1)

MPEG: The Philips HDR technology (w/ SDR-compatible mode) has been submitted to the Call for Evidence:
we(philips) obtained HDR results better than the anchor (the anchor corresponds to the BD base layer HDR-10), better
than any other SDR compatible submission, and even on par with the best non-SDR compatible submission.

Out of the four types of ST 2094 that exist, I'm not sure which have encoding tools that are capable of SDR to HDR and which don't, there is not much information on Dolby's version of HDR10+ or Dolby Vision+ (DV on HDMI 2.1 will potentially exist and be higher quality, right?)

Regarding the MPEG testing, Philips mentions that MPEG people only used identifier codes in their test result paper, as not to shame anyone or reveal trade secrets. But they also mention that we should "Please note that only one (HDR+ encoding) system comes close to Philips HDR, (Samsung SDK perhaps?) but that system is not SDR compatible. All (all 4 ST 2094) systems were tested against anchors that correspond to straightforward encoding of the HDR video using the ST 2084 EOTF. (Tested against original static HDR10 encoding tools)

I don't think we will see Dolby's implementation at any consumer level, but it is exciting that Philips and Technicolor have used combined technologies in LG tvs, but remember that all 4 types of ST 2094 still exist as plugins for the different types of media creation software. LG's use of Technicolor/Philips HDR in tvs leads me to think that other companies such as Sony and the Chinese tv manufacturers will likely adopt the Technicolor/Philips HDR for ST 2094 playback, as LG has. I think Samsung will be the only ones to use ST 2094-40 in their tv sets though, and I think they'll adopt Dolby Vision in 2018, if they don't adopt DV next year, I'd be shocked.

[chaos215bar2]

Originally Posted by Richard Paul

HDGuru talked with one of the HDMI developers and got a bit of technical detail on how HDMI 2.1 works. It sounds like 48G cables will either need to be fairly short or that they will need to include a signal amplifier in the cable.

https://hdguru.com/hdmi-2-1-to-bring...er-experience/

I'm not sure how much weight I'd put in that report. They kind of lost me when they strongly implied some HDR formats — including Dolby Vision of all things — may require 48G cables (they won't, unless you want to run them at higher resolutions and/or framerates) and that unshielded lines in some cables might cause audible interference in ARC (if the interference is that bad, you'll know there's a problem).

One way or another, I do hope they're able to address reliability in 48G products. It would be a shame to have yet another round of issues with both products and cables that have a hard time pushing the bandwidth they need without errors.

[Richard Paul]

Originally Posted by philochs

It's in the Philips white paper from the first post in this thread. It mentions that MPEG (The Moving Picture Experts Group) tested all of the ST 2094 encoding plugin tools, and that they selected 2094-20 as the best one to encode UHD BD media with.

No, that MPEG evaluation was done in the spring of 2015 and was about subjective evaluation of HDR formats under a very specific condition (showing side-by-side video with 10 second video clips). SMPTE ST 2094 was completed in the fall of 2016.

Originally Posted by philochs

But it does seem Amazon Prime and Netflix are indeed using the ST 2094-40 sdk, while UHD Blu-Ray is using the ST 2094-20 SDK.

Philips HDR is an optional component of UHD Blu-ray but no discs have used it.

Originally Posted by philochs

LG's use of Technicolor/Philips HDR in tvs leads me to think that other companies such as Sony and the Chinese tv manufacturers will likely adopt the Technicolor/Philips HDR for ST 2094 playback, as LG has. I think Samsung will be the only ones to use ST 2094-40 in their tv sets though, and I think they'll adopt Dolby Vision in 2018, if they don't adopt DV next year, I'd be shocked.

SMPTE ST 2094-40 is royalty free which I think the Chinese CE companies would vastly prefer.

Originally Posted by chaos215bar2

I'm not sure how much weight I'd put in that report. They kind of lost me when they strongly implied some HDR formats — including Dolby Vision of all things — may require 48G cables (they won't, unless you want to run them at higher resolutions and/or framerates) and that unshielded lines in some cables might cause audible interference in ARC (if the interference is that bad, you'll know there's a problem).

One way or another, I do hope they're able to address reliability in 48G products. It would be a shame to have yet another round of issues with both products and cables that have a hard time pushing the bandwidth they need without errors.

Some of the article is him guessing but the stuff about how they got HDMI 2.1 to 48 Gbps sounds very specific.

[philochs]

As excited as I am about the ST 2094 dynamic metadata support, I'm just as excited about the true 4K@120hz input that HDMI 2.1 allows for, that will really allow tvs to be great PC monsters, HDMI 2.1 will be great for PS5. The leap to native 120hz input/output is really a great addition for gamers who plan to build a system in 3-5 years that can do modern AAA 4k gaming at 120fps, max settings with only 1 gpu. You'll be able to choose between tv and monitor if you wanted, and still get that leap to 120fps 4K gaming with HDR10 and Dolby Vision. 240hz native input only exists in PC monitors with Display Port, but the leap from 120hz to 240hz is not as impressive as 60hz to 120hz input will be for tv hdmi inputs.

What I'm also really excited for besides HDMI 2.1, not to digress too much from the topic, but the hype that ATSC 3.0 will begin to roll out next year in USA is really interesting to me. It means that with an ultra HD tv tuner, cable, or satellite, hdmi 2.1 hookups I hope, you'll be able to get most/all channels in full HEVC 1080p or 4k UHD, upgraded from 720p and 1080i MPEG2, and they'll have HDR, either Dolby Vision (Dolby PQ) or HLG (Hybrid Log-Gamma).

Hybrid Log Gamma is static metadata, so Advanced HDR by Technicolor really will come in handy when just watching tv, something needs to map static metadata on the fly, cause it isn't going anywhere, unless Dolby has their way, and HLG is discontinued, and the superior Dolby PQ (broadcast signal which your tv reads as Dolby Vision) becomes the universal method of HDR for broadcast. LG is putting their ATSC 3.0 tuners in their South Korean models this year, and next year in the US as ATSC 3.0 begins to be implemented here. The broadcast spec also calls for MPEG-H and Dolby AC-4, which are new tv audio standards that use 3d audio with overhead sound effects, like Dolby Atmos and DTS:X but for tv shows. I'm frankly surprised how good ATSC 3.0 is, and how quickly it is set to go into effect. I wonder is they'll have 4k HDR 120fps NFL games, since HDMI 2.1 will allow the cable boxes to send that 4k signal after all.
HTML5/youtube are upgrading from VP9 and AAC to AV1 and opus (surround sound, capable, I believe probably up to and including 3D audio), in the WebM format for HTML5 web video and WebRTC. They say AV1 is a 25% improvement over HEVC, so I wonder when they will announce h.266, even if Blu Ray can't adopt it till the next disk format.

Boy, I'm glad I have not upgraded to an Atmos or DTS:X preamp or avr, because the 2016/2017 model may not even get a firmware update for MPEG-H and Dolby AC-4, so now I am just waiting instead of buying like I had planed. I know I need a HDMI 2.1 AV preamplifier, upgrading from hdmi 1.4 and 7.2 surround, with at least a 7.4.2, since I would want 4 in ceiling speakers. Also, I appreciate everybody working together to help understand HDMI 2.1 and HDR10+, they haven't exactly made it easy on us.

[philochs]

Originally Posted by Richard Paul

Philips HDR is an optional component of UHD Blu-ray but no discs have used it.

Right, as I've mentioned, the first UHD Blu Ray disks with HDR10+ (Philips HDR10+ ST 2094-20) will launch in 2018 along with HDMI 2.1, and I personally am inclined to believe that once they start coming out then soon every single UHD Blu-Ray will carry HDR10+, and many of them will carry Dolby Vision and HDR10+, but not all. I'm really glad I'm not an early adopter, or I'd be bummed instead of stoked. What's funny to me is that Samsung has been so vocal about not needing to add Dolby Vision to their tvs, but now that the decesion to pick Dolby PQ or HLG came up, they quietly picked Dolby PQ to throw their support behind for brodcast HDR, even though Dolby PQ is going to feed your tv a broadcast signal that your tv reads as Dolby Vision, meaning Samsung 2018 tvs are a lock to carry Dolby Vision, so why buy a QLED in 2017, it's already out of date.

[puddy77]

Originally Posted by Richard Paul

I am a bit skeptical of how Technicolor HDR works. Dolby Vision makes sense in that you use a small amount of metadata to compress HDR to a lower brightness range. With Technicolor HDR though they are taking a small amount of metadata and trying to stretch out a SDR video signal by a factor of 100 times or more. Also Technicolor's marketing really seems to promote the idea that you don't need HDR sources to use Technicolor HDR.

http://www.sportsvideo.org/2016/09/1...to-sdr-signal/

I agree. I haven't seen any analysis or criticism of their methods yet. Maybe because it's so new. Their process seems to make sense, but it would seem that there could be limitations on the HDR output. I know Dan shared a pic from CES of LG demonstrating 4 HDR methods they will support. Maybe someone saw it? Unfortunately, it looks like they had different content on each, so no real comparisons could be made.

Originally Posted by DanBa

LG OLED TV will support all major HDR formats.
https://twitter.com/DanielBa78/statu...84619506728965







Apparently, all 2017 LG OLED TV will be compatible with HEVC HDR10, HEVC Dolby Vision, HEVC HLG HDR, VP9-HLG YouTube HDR, VP9-PQ YouTube HDR and Technicolor HDR.
https://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.p...0&postcount=27

At the end of the day, it is content that matters most, not content format.
A consumer-driven HDR TV shall be able to play any HDR content.

So far, Life's Good!

And I did notice that they seem to push their ITM HDR upconversion as a major component of the service. I assume it's meant as a stopgap for productions using a mixture of SDR and HDR capture until HDR cameras become cheaper/ubiquitous. Hopefully broadcasters don't remain lazy and just continue to shoot all SDR then convert to HDR. I would much rather have native HDR than a bunch of faux HDR.

[Geoff D]

Philoch is quite correct that the Philips HDR with SEI messages to "control down-conversion of the BDMV HDR video stream to a dynamic range of the connected display" is already part of the UHD Blu spec, so if the BDA want to introduce "HDR10+" then it seems they've got a ready-made back door. Logic would dictate that they couldn't include a dynamic system that wasn't officially ratified until late last year under the 2094 drafts, but if Philips' proposed dynamic system was all but identical to what they'd already included in the UHD Blu spec then it's ready to rumble on UHD Blu, albeit with minor firmware tweaks to properly identity the messaging as it's squirted from one device to another. It is indeed an optional system rather than an open-source implementation of dynamic HDR10, but then so is DV and several studios have already thrown their hat into that particular ring so others may prefer to align with paid-for HDR10+ rather than paid-for DV. OR I'm talking out of my backside, dunno.

[philochs]

Originally Posted by chaos215bar2

I agree it's doubtful 2016 models will se an upgrade, but I'd love to hear a real, technical reason why they couldn't — especially those that already support at least one form of dynamic HDR (though why a simple software update couldn't change the tone mapping curve each frame even on the remaining models is unclear). It's par for the course, but it's also a little tiring to see each year's TVs abandoned the moment there'a a new model to sell. How often does an older model TV even receive a security update?

http://www.ste-ca.org/images/STE_Pre..._Apil_2016.pdf

Well, at least there are plans to have set top boxes that take advantage of all of Technicolor's HDR technologies and they promise to have versions that will work with HDMI 2.0a.

This document also makes clear that only the HDR "Delivery system" to tvs was a joint project involving Technicolor/Philips. Technicolor mentions that ATSC 3.0 is coming to the USA in 2018. I can't believe I never knew ATSC 3.0 was coming so soon. Laser/LED 4k Projector with HDMI 2.1 in a couple years, or 4k tv with HDMI 2.1? 2018-2020 seems like 4k HDR UHD is Going to explode. So many people expected it to fail. They also give a brief description of each type of ST-2094:

• 2094-1 – the core definitions document
• 2094-10 – [Dolby] metadata for a tone mapping based on the source content characteristics and colorist adjustments.
• 2094-20 – [Philips] metadata for a color transform based on a creatively set tone mapping curve and a luminance
dependent saturation gain curve.
• 2094-30 – [Technicolor] metadata for reference-based color volume remapping, derived from two grades of the same
content.
• 2094-40 – [Samsung] metadata for tone mapping and color saturation based
on mastering and target displays peak luminances and content characteristics.


Technicolor makes some promising claims about their future with HDR, "episodic tv, movies, home video" who still calls it "home video"? but they go into a lot of details in the that fascinating document.

[HeatEquation]

What are the odds STMPE 2094-40 gets added to the UHD BD specs at some point?

[Richard Paul]

Originally Posted by philochs

What's funny to me is that Samsung has been so vocal about not needing to add Dolby Vision to their tvs, but now that the decesion to pick Dolby PQ or HLG came up, they quietly picked Dolby PQ to throw their support behind for brodcast HDR, even though Dolby PQ is going to feed your tv a broadcast signal that your tv reads as Dolby Vision, meaning Samsung 2018 tvs are a lock to carry Dolby Vision, so why buy a QLED in 2017, it's already out of date.

HLG is an open standard that is royalty free and is supported by both ATSC and DVB. As for Samsung they have announced that they are going to release firmware updates to add support for HLG to their 2016 HDR displays.

http://www.trustedreviews.com/opinio...mma-what-is-it

Originally Posted by HeatEquation

What are the odds STMPE 2094-40 gets added to the UHD BD specs at some point?

I think the odds are very good though it might not happen until 2018.

[philochs]

Originally Posted by Richard Paul

HLG is an open standard that is royalty free and is supported by both ATSC and DVB. As for Samsung they have announced that they are going to release firmware updates to add support for HLG to their 2016 HDR displays.

Right, I understand all that, but when they were asked to judge between Dolby PQ and HLG as broadcast HDR standards, Samsung quietly supported Dolby PQ, a tacit endorsement of Dolby Vision, since a TV needs Dolby Vision for it to accept Dolby PQ broadcast signals. Of course their tv sets will support both in 2018.

"Dolby Perceptual Quantizer (PQ) was actually the first technology that set out to make broadcast HDR possible – in fact, Netflix and Amazon streams in HDR10 and Dolby Vision already use PQ. HLG came along a little later but attracted more attention because of the research committed to it by the BBC and NHK. And while HLG promises better backwards compatibility with older sets, PQ is set to offer brighter, better broadcasts.
We have developed a workflow that gets PQ from the camera directly to the consumer, we send a 10-bit PQ signal that fits into the space of standard dynamic range video.”

"The Dolby PQ signal can then be picked up by a cable box/satellite/tv tuner and interpreted as Dolby Vision data, effectively giving you broadcast Dolby Vision. The ATSC approved a ballot containing the next generation of broadcast HDR standards, Dolby PQ and HLG for ATSC 3.0. The former is supported by names including Qualcomm, Sharp, Samsung, Dolby and Technicolor, while the latter is being backed by NHK and the BBC."

By supporting Dolby PQ for ATSC 3.0 in an ATSC ballot, Samsung is quietly announcing Dolby Vision support to go along with HLG, HDMI 2.1 and an ATSC 3.0 tv tuner in their 2018 tv sets.

[philochs]

Originally Posted by HeatEquation

What are the odds STMPE 2094-40 gets added to the UHD BD specs at some point?

The Blu Ray spec would not really benefit from adding 2094-40. They already have ST 2094-20 in the spec. So I expect that 2094-30 and 2094-40 will only be used by streaming services for encoding, while "HDR10+" on UHD Blu Ray will be encoded using ST 2094-20. They haven't even released a disk or player with ST 2094-20 yet and you want them to add ST 2094-40 to the spec sheet for some reason? There is no need to. If your tv is Samsung and uses ST 2094-40 you'll still be able to watch HDR+ disks encoded w/ ST 2094-20, so there is no possible way it would matter to the end user. People are not going to be able to tell major differences between an encode using ST 2094-20 vs an encode using ST 2094-40, things like the bit-rate of disk vs streaming will matter a lot more. There is no chance, in my mind, that BDA will gather and go through the process of actually adding anything new to the UHD Blu Ray spec, is just doesn't sound feasible whatsoever. It would be redundant, and there is no need for it, no benefit from it. If they were going to add to the UHD BD spec it would be to add 3D4K but tat's never going to happen. Just be glad that when HDMI 2.1 UHD BD players are out, the UHD BD spec will finally be complete until the next disk format.

[Richard Paul]

Originally Posted by philochs

Right, I understand all that, but when they were asked to judge between Dolby PQ and HLG as broadcast HDR standards, Samsung quietly supported Dolby PQ, a tacit endorsement of Dolby Vision, since a TV needs Dolby Vision for it to accept Dolby PQ broadcast signals. Of course their tv sets will support both in 2018.

PQ is a royalty free standard and is the basis for HDR10. While PQ is used by Dolby Vision that is only part of it and Dolby Vision includes Dolby dynamic metadata and ICtCp. Dolby Vision requires a license from Dolby and a royalty payment to Dolby. Samsung supports PQ but they have strongly rejected Dolby Vision. That is one of the reasons they created SMPTE ST 2094-40 so that there would be a royalty free standard for dynamic metadata.

Originally Posted by philochs

...
By supporting Dolby PQ for ATSC 3.0 in an ATSC ballot, Samsung is quietly announcing Dolby Vision support to go along with HLG, HDMI 2.1 and an ATSC 3.0 tv tuner in their 2018 tv sets.

PQ is a royalty free standard and Dolby doesn't make a penny from it. That is why Dolby is promoting Dolby Vision.