HDMI 2.1: HDR Dynamic Metadata

[DanBa]

Originally Posted by MisterXDTV

HDR dynamic metadata is the only feature that matters for UHD Blu-ray.

The format specs don't allow resolution above 3840x2160 and frame rates over 60fps.

I hope a firmware upgrade is enough for dynamic HDR....

According to Thierry Fautier, President of Ultra HD Forum, open standard dynamic metadata ST 2094 is not part of BDA UHD spec.





HDMI 2.1 notably supports 4K HFR 120 fps and open standard SMPTE ST 2094 dynamic metadata:

. 4K HFR 120 fps is one of the video requirements of the upcoming ATSC 3.0
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/465-hi...l#post49425817
and of DVB UHD-1 Phase 2.
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/465-hi...l#post49271057

. Dynamic HDR using open standard SMPTE ST 2094 dynamic metadata:
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/465-hi...-displays.html

Dynamic HDR format(s) has (have) to be specified by a standardization organization like CTA or DECE.

[MisterXDTV]

According to this: http://files.spectracal.com/Document...emystified.pdf

"Technicolor HDR" additional metadata layer is part of the UHD Spec

Also in this interview:

https://www.avforums.com/article/bda...y-update.13069

Is Technicolor solution static or dynamic?

[DanBa]

Technicolor HDR is not part of the UHD Blu-ray specification according to the BDA white paper.
http://www.blu-raydisc.com/assets/Do...per_150724.pdf

"2.2.3.3.5 Supported HDR technologies
This format defines three types of HDR video formats: BDMV HDR [aka HDR10], Dolby Vision and Philips HDR.
The BDMV HDR is the HDR video format which is mandatory for player in this specification.
The Dolby Vision and Philips HDR are the optional HDR video technologies for players and discs."

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by DanBa

Technicolor HDR is not part of the UHD Blu-ray specification according to the BDA white paper.
http://www.blu-raydisc.com/assets/Do...per_150724.pdf

"2.2.3.3.5 Supported HDR technologies
This format defines three types of HDR video formats: BDMV HDR [aka HDR10], Dolby Vision and Philips HDR.
The BDMV HDR is the HDR video format which is mandatory for player in this specification.
The Dolby Vision and Philips HDR are the optional HDR video technologies for players and discs."

The Philips HDR version in the spec IS the Technicolour version, they joined forces on it AFAIK. [edit] And if you read the spectracal PDF it actually says Technicolour/Philips

[DanBa]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

The Philips HDR version in the spec IS the Technicolour version, they joined forces on it AFAIK. [edit] And if you read the spectracal PDF it actually says Technicolour/Philips

I don't think the Philips HDR, described in the BDA white paper, is the Technicolor/Philips HDR, described in the SpectraCal paper.

"2.2.3.3.5.3 Philips HDR
The Philips HDR video stream is a BDMV HDR video stream with Philips HDR SEI messages.
The Philips HDR SEI messages is a metadata to control down-conversion of the dynamic range of the BDMV HDR video stream to a dynamic range of the connected display."
[BDA white paper]

"The information available to date suggests that the Technicolor/Philips HDR Technology will be a single-stream, EOTF independent, open standard delivery mechanism, rather than a fully specified HDR format. A Technicolor pre-processor will take a 10-bit HDR video signal from a camera, convert the HDR to 8-bit SDR, and create a single SDR video stream that includes frame-by-frame HDR conversion metadata.
When played back by an SDR device, the device will simply ignore the extra metadata and play back the SDR video. When played back through a Technicolor/Philips HDR decoder to an HDR display, the metadata will allow the full HDR image to be reconstructed by the HDR display."
[SpectraCal paper]

[Geoff D]

From what I've read of the Philips version - pre-merger with Technicolour - it uses either an SDR base with HDR upconversion metadata or an HDR base with SDR downconversion metadata. After tests it was determined that the SDR + metadata version gave the best overall results for both SDR and HDR, but if the HDR + metadata version is all that's in the UHD Blu spec then so be it.

[edit] And the comment from Victor Matsuda - y'know, the VP of the BDA - in the AVF interview is rather telling, as it clearly infers that Technicolour's version is the other optional HDR, emphasis mine:

Originally Posted by Victor

Well [Dolby Vision is] already part of the specs but like with Technicolor it’s entirely up to the studios whether or not they use it.

However you want to get around the semantics, the Philips HDR version for UHD Blu-ray appears to have become the Technicolour HDR version for UHD Blu-ray.

[PS3_Kiwi]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qnVr...ature=youtu.be

[HDTV1080P]

It is awesome that HDMI 2.1 will support native 8K video with 48Gbps cables, however it could be 2026 before an 8K optical disc format is released (With 10GB per second residential Internet, 8K downloads and 8K streaming might prevent a 8K optical disc from being released). The 4K Ultra HD Blu-ray format might end up being the last and best optical disc format before streaming and download takes over.

If we start seeing HDMI 2.1 displays and A/V receivers in the future that offer 8K video support then you will know that native 8K movies will be coming a few years later most likely (VUDU and Netflix 8K interfaces will try and kill the 4K Ultra HD Blu-ray format).

[Richard Paul]

Originally Posted by puddy77

http://www.prnewswire.com/news-relea...300384117.html

HDMI 2.1 had a few surprises and increasing the maximum bandwidth from 18 Gbps to 48 Gbps is a huge increase. I have to wonder how many CE products will manage to support that in 2018 since it took a while for 18 Gbps HDMI chips to be widely used.

Originally Posted by 2themax

Dynamic metadata doesn't matter either. It's not part of the spec. HDMI 2.1 doesn't change a thing for UHD.

It depends on whether SMPTE ST 2094 dynamic metadata gets added to the Ultra HD Blu-ray specs.

[cynatnite]

Originally Posted by HDTV1080P

It is awesome that HDMI 2.1 will support native 8K video with 48Gbps cables, however it could be 2026 before an 8K optical disc format is released (With 10GB per second residential Internet, 8K downloads and 8K streaming might prevent a 8K optical disc from being released). The 4K Ultra HD Blu-ray format might end up being the last and best optical disc format before streaming and download takes over.

If we start seeing HDMI 2.1 displays and A/V receivers in the future that offer 8K video support then you will know that native 8K movies will be coming a few years later most likely (VUDU and Netflix 8K interfaces will try and kill the 4K Ultra HD Blu-ray format).

Well, maybe I've got a few years to come up with a good argument for going 8K to the husband.

[gkolb]

Originally Posted by DanBa

According to Thierry Fautier, President of Ultra HD Forum, open standard dynamic metadata ST 2094 is not part of BDA UHD spec.





HDMI 2.1 notably supports 4K HFR 120 fps and open standard SMPTE ST 2094 dynamic metadata:

. 4K HFR 120 fps is one of the video requirements of the upcoming ATSC 3.0
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/465-hi...l#post49425817
and of DVB UHD-1 Phase 2.
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/465-hi...l#post49271057

. Dynamic HDR using open standard SMPTE ST 2094 dynamic metadata:
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/465-hi...-displays.html

Dynamic HDR format(s) has (have) to be specified by a standardization organization like CTA or DECE.

Sooo,

for us slower folks and ground pounders, perhaps Penton or another professor could help us see why thee big disagreement is taking place over dynamic metadata in this conversation. Is it because it's to be considered for HDR part deux? So it's not a real part of the current approved standard?

Please elaborate on whatever it is that's got all the panties wadded up.
Professor ???

[MisterXDTV]

Originally Posted by NEP010314

Not currently, but it will obviously be added at some point.

Yeah, if dynamic metadata can be carried through an HDMI 2.0a cable/port, there's no reason not to. A firmware upgrade on every UHD Player would be enough. Same for HDR displays with HDMI 2.0a

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by gkolb

Sooo,
for us slower folks

I’m getting that way on the bike during rides.

Originally Posted by gkolb

and ground pounders

I’ve always been that way on the golf course.

Originally Posted by gkolb

perhaps Penton or another professor could help us see why thee big disagreement is taking place over dynamic metadata in this conversation.

Sounds complicated but I'll make a quick comment based upon my reading of your quoting of Dan's post.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by DanBa

According to Thierry Fautier, President of Ultra HD Forum, open standard dynamic metadata ST 2094 is not part of BDA UHD spec....

True, but like with what history has already shown with Blu-ray... as described last October Ultra HD Blu-ray spec is also not written in stone.





Although….it could be argued that if an end-to-end Dolby Vision ecosystem, meaning not only grading and mastering -




but also including DV Ultra HD Blu-ray players and deliverable physical media product (DV Ultra HD Blu-ray movie discs) -




quickly become more ubiquitously adopted among major content creators then, there may be less motivation for expedited action by some BDA membership to formally revise the Ultra spec to include an ST. 2094 update.

[DanBa]

My related post on AVS:
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/465-hi...l#post47908393

"

Originally Posted by ray0414

But I'm curious if dynamic hdr10 will eventually be adopted into the spec in the future/near future.

According to Penton, it is possible but unlikely.

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

With regards to dynamic metadata (for instance ST 2094-10, which is the SMPTE reference for Dolby’s implementation for tone mapping and color volume remapping guidance which seems most popular in the AV press) just as with Blu-ray and 3D (http://www.prnewswire.co.uk/news-rel...155216085.html which yielded ->
http://www.businesswire.com/news/hom...-Specification),

Ultra HD Blu-ray can be updated to support new features.

The challenge is what I’ve now bolded for emphasis in a past response to another member on the last page. Technically speaking, the physical format could handle such an update.

"Any revision to the spec and hardware or software tools to implement it depends on the degree of motivation by the board members of the BDA to aggressively champion the continued development of physical media in the future. Everyone’s mind and energy seems more directed to what Walt (the Director of Image Technologies at Dolby Labs) will be speaking about tomorrow afternoon, namely internet delivery of HDR content.

Just in terms of what we have now, as I mentioned to the OP, bruceames. months ago during which I posted the the MaxCLL histogram of a popular feature film, currently, probably the greatest handicap of the Ultra HD Blu-ray spec for colorists when mastering a movie is the lack of specification for a diffuse white luminance level thusly causing an inconsistent quality HDR 10 product (movies). I don’t envision rectifying that happening anytime soon..."

https://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.p...&postcount=544

Ethically, I think the BDA should fix its original sin: the incomplete / half-baked "HDR10" was created without one of the 3 fundamental HDR building blocks "Adaption for consistent visual".



HDR10 =~ ST 2086 + ST 2084

Upcoming ST 2094 Dynamic HDR = ST 2086 + ST 2084 + ST 2094"

[gkolb]

So what's the holdup?

The HDMI folks have announced 2.1 which is evidently needed to carry the increased data bits anticipated for Dynamic Metadata whether version 2094-10, -20 -30, -40 (shall I go on? Seems we have maxed out at 4 versions for now.)

The real kicker is can all 2016 and 2017 UHD tv models all be updated to HDMI 2.1 like Samsung has promised? Even Sony and LG's? It seemed implied that new HDMI chips (is it chips?) would need to be installed to handle the higher data rate (48Gb ?)

If it is hardware and HDR part deux standards that both need to be confirmed/ eventually approved, then indeed that could be a long tough haul. I don't recall any predictions when both of these would be ready to go together.

I guess that since HDMI 2.1 has been announced (if this hardware actually exists in fact at this point), then the dynamic metadata approval is the big headache for the standards group???

Do we even need DM, if Dolby Vision/HDR10 base layer discs have been confirmed by Dolby for production early (Spring, Summer) this year?? Or will DM be more useful as we get more HFR (120) and get closer to 8K displays?

So many questions...

[chaos215bar2]

Originally Posted by gkolb

So what's the holdup?

The HDMI folks have announced 2.1 which is evidently needed to carry the increased data bits anticipated for Dynamic Metadata whether version 2094-10, -20 -30, -40 (shall I go on? Seems we have maxed out at 4 versions for now.)

The real kicker is can all 2016 and 2017 UHD tv models all be updated to HDMI 2.1 like Samsung has promised? Even Sony and LG's? It seemed implied that new HDMI chips (is it chips?) would need to be installed to handle the higher data rate (48Gb ?)

If it is hardware and HDR part deux standards that both need to be confirmed/ eventually approved, then indeed that could be a long tough haul. I don't recall any predictions when both of these would be ready to go together.

I guess that since HDMI 2.1 has been announced (if this hardware actually exists in fact at this point), then the dynamic metadata approval is the big headache for the standards group???

Do we even need DM, if Dolby Vision/HDR10 base layer discs have been confirmed by Dolby for production early (Spring, Summer) this year?? Or will DM be more useful as we get more HFR (120) and get closer to 8K displays?

So many questions...

First, Samsung hasn't promised anything. They demonstrated, at one point, HDR with dynamic metadata running on what appeared to be 2016 televisions, but no specific claims were made regarding the source (it could have been an app, not HDMI) or to what extent they might support it via a future a software update. This demo has snowballed into the oft-repeated statement that Samsung has promised dynamic HDR10 / HDMI 2.1 support on 2016 televisions. (When this discussion started, I don't think anyone imagined HDMI 2.1 would include any bandwidth increases. Mostly people were just hoping for dynamic HDR10 to match Dolby Vision's capabilities in a less proprietary format.)

More importantly, dynamic metadata and the new 48 Gb/s data rate are two independent developments in HDMI 2.1. Dynamic metadata requires very little bandwidth. It's basically just an extra header sent along with each frame with a few numeric values describing the rendering intent of that frame (maximum brightness, etc.). You don't even need HDMI 2.1 to send such a header, but without a standard there would be no guarantee the receiving device would know what to do with it. You'd just be making up your own protocol, which is kind of what Dolby Vision does and why you can't just plug a Dolby Vision capable source into any old HDMI 2.0a TV and get dynamic HDR.

48 Gb/s is what lets HDMI 2.1 achieve 8k at 60+ fps without compression. It absolutely isn't necessary to send dynamic HDR metadata, and in fact the spec allows a device to support the new HDR modes without supporting anything beyond HDMI 2.0's 18 Gb/s of bandwidth.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by gkolb

So what's the holdup?
The HDMI folks have announced 2.1...

Now that HDMI has formally announced facilitation of dynamic metadata, I’m open as to recommendations for the best way to implement it in the video stream in order to make it happen…. with actual consumer TV watching.

Vis-à-vis thru an HEVC spec or, sending a private SEI message in the video stream that is understandable to the HEVC decoder, as Richard previously indicated…. https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...i#post12951204

[Richard Paul]

For anyone curious about HDMI 2.1 the HDMI website gives a good explanation:

http://www.hdmi.org/manufacturer/hdmi_2_1/index.aspx

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Now that HDMI has formally announced facilitation of dynamic metadata, I’m open as to recommendations for the best way to implement it in the video stream in order to make it happen…. with actual consumer TV watching.

Vis-à-vis thru an HEVC spec or, sending a private SEI message in the video stream that is understandable to the HEVC decoder, as Richard previously indicated…. https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...i#post12951204

I think that private SEI message is most likely how it will happen since that would allow it to be added to HDR10 this year.

[Canada]

With HDMI 2.1 I wonder if studios will be able to do 3D 2160p with the 48 GBPS hopefully so.