HDTVTEST (Vincent Teoh) Discussion Thread

[BrownianMotion]

Originally Posted by MisterXDTV

Samsung did this specifically to make QD-OLED stand out more compared to WOLED...

If you use reference settings, you will soon understand that MOST content CAN'T use QD-OLED color gamut/volume as Vincent showed...

Movies are mastered to DCI P3 standard, and just like Vincent showed, the image for the most part doesn't even get past Rec.709, a TV standard since 2006

If people would get this, then the HUGE QD-OLED advantages in color quality become marginal... And that's bad for marketing...

QD-OLED is a very interesting and beneficial technology. Don't let Samsung taint that for you.

The big benefit of QD-OLED is the increase in color volume. It allows an OLED to generate very saturated colors at high luminance levels, even when calibrated for accuracy, which WOLEDs have been unable to do.

[MisterXDTV]

Originally Posted by BrownianMotion

QD-OLED is a very interesting and beneficial technology. Don't let Samsung taint that for you.

The big benefit of QD-OLED is the increase in color volume. It allows an OLED to generate very saturated colors at high luminance levels, even when calibrated for accuracy, which WOLEDs have been unable to do.

Higher Color volume means nothing if the content is limited to SDR BT.709 like Vincent showed in that video with The Dark Knight 4K disc...

At the end of the day, REAL content is the bottleneck

You don't buy a TV to watch test patterns

[teddyballgame]

Originally Posted by BrownianMotion

QD-OLED is a very interesting and beneficial technology. Don't let Samsung taint that for you.

The big benefit of QD-OLED is the increase in color volume. It allows an OLED to generate very saturated colors at high luminance levels, even when calibrated for accuracy, which WOLEDs have been unable to do.

Absolutely, having more headroom is great. I think MisterXDTV is just saying for most movies you probably won't see it come into play all that often. Hopefully Vincent will tell us just when WRGB panels start to lose color... is it something like 600 nits of brightness?
I think highlights above a certain point and higher APL scenes will probably keep more color on qd oled. Basically anytime the white subpixel would be really pushed hard on WRGB.

There's just lot of youtubers spending an inordinate amount of time showing comparisons between WRGB and QDOLED with pure HDR demos and gaming. That's a great way to show off the new tech and also avoid copystrike but it's probably not what most people buy a TV for. Unless you're really doing your homework the average joe is going to think that kind of gain in luminosity and color will apply to all of their content. No chance of that though

[MisterXDTV]

In the video Vincent showed that the brown table and the helipad circle where INSIDE the Rec.709 color space and about 100-120 nits brightness

It's absurd to believe that a WOLED wouldn't be able to reproduce it faithfully. It's like SDR in a HDR container

[BrownianMotion]

Originally Posted by MisterXDTV

Higher Color volume means nothing if the content is limited to SDR BT.709 like Vincent showed in that video with The Dark Knight 4K disc...

At the end of the day, REAL content is the bottleneck

You don't buy a TV to watch test patterns

You're only looking at one side of color volume. Color volume isn't just about the 2D color gamut. It's the color gamut and dynamic range together and how they interact. It's a 3-dimensional measure of how a display handles saturation at different levels of luminance.

Also, plenty of HDR content goes beyond Rec709. However, just as with 1000+ nits of peak brightness, those moments are rare and fleeting. Not every scene needs to have 1000+ nits of peak brightness, just as not every scene will require Rec2020. But QD-OLED will be better equipped to handle such a situation.

[chip75]

Originally Posted by MisterXDTV

In the video Vincent showed that the brown table and the helipad circle where INSIDE the Rec.709 color space and about 100-120 nits brightness

It's absurd to believe that a WOLED wouldn't be able to reproduce it faithfully. It's like SDR in a HDR container

From the heat maps we've seen posted by members, there's not a huge amount that strays outside that gamut with UHDs. It's not that the tech can't faithfully reproduce it, Samsung is artificially boosting the image (along with fudging the EOTF), so even after calibration sidy-by-side comparisons they'll look more vivid to their competition.

[MisterXDTV]

Originally Posted by chip75

From the heat maps we've seen posted by members, there's not a huge amount that strays outside that gamut with UHDs. It's not that the tech can't faithfully reproduce it, Samsung is artificially boosting the image (along with fudging the EOTF), so even after calibration sidy-by-side comparisons they'll look more vivid to their competition.

That's exactly my point: movies are mastered to DCI-P3 that has theoretically 25% more gamut than Rec.709 BUT for the most part the image stays within Rec.709 at low nits...

So yeah we can talk about BT.2020 and 1500 nits all year long but in the end it means very little....

Samsung just found a way to scam Youtubers that don't know better...

[Waboman]

I asked my friend Sam to sing me a song about artificially boosting the tv image.
And then Samsung.

[LordoftheRings]

Originally Posted by teddyballgame

The 1500 nit readings were bursts that could not be sustained. No idea if that transfers to real content either.

Samsung has lost credibility when it comes to test windows though. They have some undefeatable black box of processing working behind the scenes at all times. I'd be more interested in measurements derived from real content that a calibrator is intimately famliar with and has a good understanding for the luminosity and color values for specific parts of different scenes. You'd need a reference monitor though.

Vincent is using a Sony reference monitor to compare; I like that.

[Derb]

Originally Posted by LordoftheRings

Vincent is using a Sony reference monitor to compare; I like that.

Well it’s a Cannon he used. Maybe it has more tools than the Sony monitor.. dunno.

I saw Mygadgetsworld YouTuber’s video after Vincent’s..

He directly compared all of Vincent’s film shots on his S95B. He found that gamma at -1 was enough to get PQ as natural as could be without calibration compared to Vincent’s -3 without boosting any shadow detail to +2 either.

Screen uniformity & 0 banding pleased Vincent but that isn’t a hard task to get on any 55” OLED.

What interests me the most about the tech isn’t QD. It is its true RGB Pixel structure. Well that & longevity as Samsung clearly doesn’t care about brightness limitations.

[MisterXDTV]

Originally Posted by Derb

Well it’s a Cannon he used. Maybe it has more tools than the Sony monitor.. dunno.

No, he is using both:

- Canon DP-V3120 to check input data

- Sony BVM-HX310 for output

[BrownianMotion]

Originally Posted by MisterXDTV

So yeah we can talk about BT.2020 and 1500 nits all year long but in the end it means very little....

You can keep saying this, but it won't ever be true.

First, you need to understand what color volume actually means. It's abundantly apparent that you're still struggling with that concept. Being able to accurately reproduce colors at the higher end of the curve is important in HDR, and this is something that QD-OLED can do better than WOLED. Even Vincent Teoh has spoken about this, and he absolutely loves QD-OLED.

Samsung just found a way to scam Youtubers that don't know better...

True, but you need to be able to separate the two. Samsung's own TVs boost the image, but Samsung is not the only manufacturer of QD-OLED displays. You can rest assured that Sony won't be doing any boosting, and you'll be able to enjoy all of the benefits of QD-OLED with an accurate image.

Samsung - bad

QD-OLED - good

[MisterXDTV]

Originally Posted by BrownianMotion

You can keep saying this, but it won't ever be true.

First, you need to understand what color volume actually means. It's abundantly apparent that you're still struggling with that concept.

QD-OLED - good

You are still struggling with the reality that most content WON'T reach the color gamut/volume required to make QD-OLED shine compared to WOLED...

The film industry HAS STANDARDS that are WAY below what QD-OLED can do

These standards are specified by DCI, not by panel or TV makers

But hey, if you are happy about having 90% of BT.2020 and never using it... Good for you...

Or you can boost everything up, like Samsung just did...

[BrownianMotion]

Originally Posted by MisterXDTV

You are still struggling with the reality that most content WON'T reach the color gamut/volume required to make QD-OLED shine compared to WOLED...

The film industry HAS STANDARDS that are WAY below what QD-OLED can do

These standards are specified by DCI, not by panel or TV makers

But hey, if you are happy about 90% BT.2020 and not ever using it... Good for you...

Or you can boost everything, like Samsung just did...

Plenty of content makes use of that color volume. As I've told you numerous times, and you still have failed to understand, color volume is not only about the color space - it's a 3 dimensional measure of how well a TV can reproduce colors at various levels of luminance. There is plenty of content with specular highlights beyond 1000 nits, and this is where WOLED has struggled. The technology is limited in its ability to reproduce colors at the higher end of the curve. QD-OLED simply does it better.

Just watch how Vincent gushes over the Alienware AW3423DW QD-OLED monitor's ability to display highly saturated colors at high luminance levels while also having very accurate colors. There's no boosting going on here. Starts at 0:55:

Alienware AW3423DW QD-OLED - The Best PC Gaming Monitor. PERIOD. - YouTube

[MisterXDTV]

Another one bamboozled by Samsung marketing...

Straight to my ignore list, bye bye

[BrownianMotion]

Originally Posted by MisterXDTV

Another one bamboozled by Samsung marketing...

Straight to my ignore list, bye bye

Tap out acknowledged.

[chip75]

Originally Posted by MisterXDTV

You are still struggling with the reality that most content WON'T reach the color gamut/volume required to make QD-OLED shine compared to WOLED...

Well there's a variance in gamut coverage and peak brightness across different tech and manufacturers (and their different models). It doesn't really matter if the QD-OLEDs have headroom in that regards, it's what they're (Samsung) doing side-by-side with the content they're given that matters.

Samsung should be held to task for their continual lack of disregard of the spirit of Filmmaker Mode and calibration in general. They've been juicing their game for some weird flex, showing off to folks that stand in stores and pick the brightest VA panels in front of them because they don't know about viewing angle drop-offs.

Now they're trying to win web shootouts by juicing and as Ben Parker said, "with great power there must also come -- great responsibility."

[BrownianMotion]

Originally Posted by chip75

Samsung should be held to task for their continual lack of disregard of the spirit of Filmmaker Mode and calibration in general. They've been juicing their game

This is the issue, but it's important to keep in mind that this is a Samsung issue. Not a QD-OLED one.

It's very bizarre how people can't seem to separate Samsung's practices from the QD-OLED tech. The other guy was trying to tear down QD-OLED because of Samsung's boosting, when other manufacturers have been able use QD-OLED while still maintaining a high level of accuracy. It's great technology that is being endorsed by knowledgeable AV enthusiasts/calibrators like Vincent.

[MisterXDTV]

Originally Posted by chip75

Well there's a variance in gamut coverage and peak brightness across different tech and manufacturers (and their different models). It doesn't really matter if the QD-OLEDs have headroom in that regards, it's what they're (Samsung) doing side-by-side with the content they're given that matters.

Of course Chip, the gamut coverage and brightness can change between displays but NOT what's stored on UHD discs...

Any TV should AIM to display the image source as faithfully as it can... Especially if we are talking about the Premium segment of the market

Samsung DOESN'T want to do that because if they did, there would be little difference compared to a WOLED that's been already available for years

They succeeded, as most so-called experts fell for it...

"You see, WOLED CAN'T display a yellow like THAT!"

It was a Rec.709/SDR element at 100 nits...

[teddyballgame]

Originally Posted by BrownianMotion

This is the issue, but it's important to keep in mind that this is a Samsung issue. Not a QD-OLED one.

It's very bizarre how people can't seem to separate Samsung's practices from the QD-OLED tech. The other guy was trying to tear down QD-OLED because of Samsung's boosting, when other manufacturers have been able use QD-OLED while still maintaining a high level of accuracy. It's great technology that is being endorsed by knowledgeable AV enthusiasts/calibrators like Vincent.

Agreed, just to elaborate on this for a second for anyone not following closely.

So within Samsung there are 2 division of the company. Samsung Display (panel R&D and production) and also Samsung Visual Display or Electronics (design and build the TV product itself once supplied a panel)

Samsung Display made the QD-OLED panel and it seems like a slam dunk based on initial impressions. True RGB pixel structure (no white subpixel to dilute color), wider color gamut, cleaner uniformity, increased brightness capability, improved near black handling, better viewing angles with no hue or tint. Sony has purchased a lot of these panels to put inside their new A95K.

So the panel is promising but Samsung's implementation is very divisive. It doesn't track PQ accurately and the auto color space function is broken etc. Sony has a better reputation so that's what people are waiting on now. Comparisons between A90J/S95B/A95K which should help seperate and make clear the differences between the underlying tech but also the processing they choose to run on the panel.