8K discussion thread

[HeavyHitter]

Originally Posted by Anthony P

I would love top see 8k physical media, and I think one day we will. BUT 2026 is just way too soon. Let me put it this way a bunch of companies came together in Feb 2002 and named themselves Blu-ray disc founders. At that point most of the tech was kind of ready (blue lasers....)

New formats take years to be made, you need to get a bunch of companies to agree on some standards, you need to make sure you can build production capabilities you need to make sure players can work..... And unlike 3D and even 4K (that have pushed BD as far as it can) a true 8k format will like DVD and BD most likely require a new physical format and not just a tweak on data layers.



don't know what you mean by "major studio is still supporting UHD BD".

if you mean producing them in-house or just we will have those titles available on UHD BD

but, since someone posted this in a different thread

I just can't imagine studios will want to get rid of 20% of the market or even if we start with the assumption of displacement( those people will buy it on BD/DVD....) accept less revenue.

Where are we trending? I would like to see a historical trend line since inception date of UHD BD in terms of percentage of overall physical media and overall sales....and maybe a MonteCarlo for going forward. I don't think that trend will be great but would like to be wrong.

By major studios, talking Warner, Paramount, Sony, Disney-Fox, and Universal.

[LordoftheRings]

The state of the 8K affairs ...
▪︎ https://www.flatpanelshd.com/news.ph...&id=1651213672

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by Anthony P

I would love top see 8k physical media, and I think one day we will. BUT 2026 is just way too soon. Let me put it this way a bunch of companies came together in Feb 2002 and named themselves Blu-ray disc founders. At that point most of the tech was kind of ready (blue lasers....)

New formats take years to be made, you need to get a bunch of companies to agree on some standards, you need to make sure you can build production capabilities you need to make sure players can work..... And unlike 3D and even 4K (that have pushed BD as far as it can) a true 8k format will like DVD and BD most likely require a new physical format and not just a tweak on data layers.



don't know what you mean by "major studio is still supporting UHD BD".

if you mean producing them in-house or just we will have those titles available on UHD BD

but, since someone posted this in a different thread



I just can't imagine studios will want to get rid of 20% of the market or even if we start with the assumption of displacement( those people will buy it on BD/DVD....) accept less revenue.

...aaaaaaaaaaand that's the point: no-one in their right mind is going to spend the millions and millions and millions necessary for creating a new format from scratch in an age where physical media - and indeed the idea of ownership of content in general - is dying on its arse as a mass market proposition. Not gonna happen. Yeah, a bunch of people got together to create Blu-ray (and HD DVD, heh) but it didn't just appear from the ether, it's because of how DVD was the most successful physical media format in history, i.e. they *all* wanted a piece of whatever's next.

But DVD was perhaps too popular, as everyone had bought all their favourites and were like '**** that!' when aksed to do it all again just a few years laterer. Subsequent disc formats didn't offer any advancements in functionality either, or at least nothing useful to the average consumer, as DVD was such a major leap from anything that came before it that everything after was always going to seem less impressive. Maybe if the format war had been avoided then Blu would be in a betterer place, as there's nothing the average person likes more than a good old fashioned bit of buyer's remorse, but substantially so? I dunno man.

As for the pie chart, that's on a good day, or should I say week. At other times UHD is usually hovering at about 5% and there isn't a studio exec in the land who I would blame for deciding to pull the plug on UHD because of it.

[Anthony P]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

...aaaaaaaaaaand that's the point: no-one in their right mind is going to spend the millions and millions and millions necessary for creating a new format from scratch in an age where physical media - and indeed the idea of ownership of content in general - is dying on its arse as a mass market proposition. Not gonna happen. Yeah, a bunch of people got together to create Blu-ray (and HD DVD, heh) but it didn't just appear from the ether, it's because of how DVD was the most successful physical media format in history, i.e. they *all* wanted a piece of whatever's next.

I remember when some people assumed BD would be the last physical format, then 3d BD and lastly UHD BD so why not go through this again

the issue is that you are assuming stuff that don't make sense.

1) cost is not as high as you think
2) ROI can be incredibly high so why not
3) tech does not exist in a silo even though it might appear that way some times.

But DVD was perhaps too popular, as everyone had bought all their favourites and were like '**** that!' when aksed to do it all again just a few years laterer. Subsequent disc formats didn't offer any advancements in functionality either, or at least nothing useful to the average consumer, as DVD was such a major leap from anything that came before it that everything after was always going to seem less impressive. Maybe if the format war had been avoided then Blu would be in a betterer place, as there's nothing the average person likes more than a good old fashioned bit of buyer's remorse, but substantially so? I dunno man.

like I said before on a personal note I can't wait for the next better format (why I am in a thread like this one), but I agree with you in the fact that most people don't care when it comes to home entertainment and that means, like an other member puts it, "the 10 year cycle" is way too short for them. that is an other reason I don't think 2026/2028 we will see it.


But the problem with your idea is that it somehow assumes

1) a consumer saying "I don't care" means "I do care and I don't want something better".

2) that if it does match the popularity of DVD tat its highest a market that is worth while does not exist

As for the pie chart, that's on a good day, or should I say week. At other times UHD is usually hovering at about 5% and there isn't a studio exec in the land who I would blame for deciding to pull the plug on UHD because of it.

I don't know if it is a good day, it is the latest values. But even if we assume it was abnormal high for UHD that is irrelevant. Maybe some people say I care for movie X so I will pay a premium for UHHD while I don't care about Y so I will buy the DVD and that pushed the high up but even if that is the case it will still show people that are willing to pay a premium for the UHD.

[Lee A Stewart]

Anthony:

You are living a pipe dream if you really believe the BDA is going to create an 8K format. You've seen the predictions for 8K TV sales - 4 years from now and hardly a blip on the total sales chart.

The No. American Physical Media market is losing 18% a year. The world wide market is no better:



Business 101 . . . follow the money.

[Geoff D]

1) not

2) gonna

3) happen

[HeavyHitter]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Maybe if the format war had been avoided then Blu would be in a betterer place, as there's nothing the average person likes more than a good old fashioned bit of buyer's remorse, but substantially so? I dunno man.

I do think the format war had a negative impact on BD to some degree. That format war was by far the most divisive 'event' I've witnessed in home theater since getting into it all 1999. I think a number of people on the sidelines became turned off by it all and never jumped in sticking with DVD and eventually just going steaming.

[Vixzer]

we have barely gotten out of DVDs, and we haven't stopped using it still, a lot of material is still released only on DVD and they are already talking about 8k?

No thanks.

[Vilya]

Those "week ended" pie charts are merely snapshots in time that look at a single week of the year. For every pie chart showing 4K disc percentages in double digits you'll probably find three or more in single digits.

The chart below comes from flatpanelsHD and it shows the sales percentage of each disc format from 2018 thru the first quarter of 2021:



As you can see, 4K UHD discs have never exceeded 7.5% over the time period shown. 4K discs are not a "growth" market; they are a niche one.

I would be damn surprised to see an 8K physical format when at this point all 8K offers is a modest increase in resolution that requires that you sit uncomfortably close to very large screens just to be able to perceive the difference over 4K.

Seeing as 4K discs have thus far not been able to rejuvenate the physical media market, or even capture a decent share of it, how is a new 8K physical format that only offers barely perceptible improvements in resolution going to succeed? The 4K disc format could not revive disc sales; what possible chance could an 8K format have?

[Geoff D]

That's a bingo. Studios and labels wouldn't release stuff on 4K if they weren't making some money from it, and the added margins on 4K are one reason why the indies in particular are all scrambling to get involved after keeping it at arm's length for years. But it's not some new gold rush, it's high quality physical media's last gasp and they're getting in there while the patient still has a pulse.

There will be 8K content for sure, but there won't be an 8K disc format to play it on.

[Vilya]

The hardly noticeable uptick in resolution offered by 8K is not going to be enough to impress or excite many people to adopt it. I'm not aware of any studios prepping anything for release in 8K regardless of how it might be distributed. At present, drone flights and cat videos streamed from youtube comprise the vast majority of available 8K content. That sure makes me want to upgrade my TV!

8K as it stands now offers only a barely perceptible increase in resolution. I would have to sit about 5' feet from my 85" TV (if it were an 8K set) to even have a chance to notice the "improvement." I currently sit 8.5' away and that is really as close as I care to get. Thankfully, that viewing distance is fine for enjoying 4K content.

The improved resolution offered by 4K is not what impresses (many of) us the most about the format. Wide color gamut and high dynamic range make the format stand above its predecessor. It's why we don't really mind that so many of our 4K discs are just 2K upscales.

8K will have to offer something more than just increased resolution if it is to have any chance at creating significant consumer interest. Without consumer interest, I don't expect the studios to have much interest, either.

[Geoff D]

And that's the point, as there's no HDR 2: The Second Part with which to shill 8K then all it has is what will be a virtually imperceptible increase in resolution to most viewers (who already sit so far from their 4K televisions that they don't get the benefit of 4K despite bleating about "fake 4K" at the same time).

Warners did a recent study https://www.techhive.com/article/578...ifference.html and found that participants rated the 8K test material as only 'slightly better' at most and that in many cases rated the 4K footage as being similarly superior, likely because they couldn't tell them apart! Oddly enough, the only two clips that received these slightly higher 8K ratings consistently were an 8K re-render of clip from A Bug's Life and a 'Nature' clip from Stacey Spears, the latter having been specifically shot to be demo content and the former having that sort of outright digital crispness that people respond to.

In other words, as real-world live-action content isn't usually shot to be the absolute best demo material that it can possibly be then those 8K returns - as minimal as they already are - are whittled away to nothing, and that's when viewed on a fookin 88" TV from seven feet away! Factor in smaller screen sizes being viewed from twice that distance (people are often a lot more than 7ft from their TVs) and dat 8K difference is dead before it even got started.

[LordoftheRings]

Couple days ago ... the trend of 8K
• https://www.extremetech.com/electron...lready-falling

[unberechenbar]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

And that's the point, as there's no HDR 2: The Second Part with which to shill 8K then all it has is what will be a virtually imperceptible increase in resolution to most viewers (who already sit so far from their 4K televisions that they don't get the benefit of 4K despite bleating about "fake 4K" at the same time).

Do you think higher chroma resolution could be a selling point for 8K if they couple it with 8K sets?

[RalphoR]

If blu-ray sales can't even catch DVD sales at this point.....8k?

[Lee A Stewart]

Originally Posted by unberechenbar

Do you think higher chroma resolution could be a selling point for 8K if they couple it with 8K sets?

Do you mean Chroma Subsampling Rate like going from 4:2:0 to 4:2:2 or are you referring to Color Space: going from 10 bit to 12 bit?

BTW - neither will make a huge difference as the human eye/brain is not sensitive to changes in color. But both will take up precious bandwidth.

[unberechenbar]

Originally Posted by Lee A Stewart

Do you mean Chroma Subsampling Rate like going from 4:2:0 to 4:2:2 or are you referring to Color Space: going from 10 bit to 12 bit?

BTW - neither will make a huge difference as the human eye/brain is not sensitive to changes in color. But both will take up precious bandwidth.

The former but either one would be great.

[Rick Grimes]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

I'd be surprised if the majors are still outputting high quality disc e.g. BD and UHD on this sort of scale by then. Indies yes, majors no. And would equally not be surprised if they dumped them but kept DVD going!

But hopefully they'll have offered forth all their major catalogue upgrades by then, if I have to live with new studio movies being released on digital only (with maybe a boutique disc release a little while later) then so be it.

Originally Posted by Anthony P

I would love top see 8k physical media, and I think one day we will. BUT 2026 is just way too soon. Let me put it this way a bunch of companies came together in Feb 2002 and named themselves Blu-ray disc founders. At that point most of the tech was kind of ready (blue lasers....)

New formats take years to be made, you need to get a bunch of companies to agree on some standards, you need to make sure you can build production capabilities you need to make sure players can work..... And unlike 3D and even 4K (that have pushed BD as far as it can) a true 8k format will like DVD and BD most likely require a new physical format and not just a tweak on data layers.



don't know what you mean by "major studio is still supporting UHD BD".

if you mean producing them in-house or just we will have those titles available on UHD BD

but, since someone posted this in a different thread



I just can't imagine studios will want to get rid of 20% of the market or even if we start with the assumption of displacement( those people will buy it on BD/DVD....) accept less revenue.

That is definitely not worldwide. In Australia, it would be more like UHD 5%, BD 15%, DVD 80%.

We didn’t even get a BD release of King Richard, let alone a UHD. Moonfall, Last Night in Soho, are some of the more recent titles that don’t get UHD titles. Australia is a relatively small market, but DVD will always be king.
Many people who watch multimedia do it in their phones, Ipads or laptops. Many have no idea what they are missing. Ignorance is bliss. And if they saw true 8K output, they probably would say “I don’t see the difference”, which is what I got a lot when trying to convince people 1080i looks better than 576i (PAL country).
8K physical media will never be a reality.

Originally Posted by Lee A Stewart

Anthony:

You are living a pipe dream if you really believe the BDA is going to create an 8K format. You've seen the predictions for 8K TV sales - 4 years from now and hardly a blip on the total sales chart.

The No. American Physical Media market is losing 18% a year. The world wide market is no better:



Business 101 . . . follow the money.

[lgans316]

We buy 8K TVs for nits and that feel good factor and not for the resolution.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by unberechenbar

Do you think higher chroma resolution could be a selling point for 8K if they couple it with 8K sets?

8K content @ 4:2:0 would still have 4x the chroma resolution of 4K, just as 4K has 4x the chroma rez of HD. Do I think it’d be a selling point? Good lord no, as it’s the kind of minor enhancement that only ultra-nerds notice as it is.

If you mean adding more chroma rez like using 4:2:2 then the same applies, as it’s something only we’d notice/care about/even know existed.