8K discussion thread

[Anthony P]

Originally Posted by Lee A Stewart

Anthony:

You are living a pipe dream if you really believe the BDA is going to create an 8K format.

just to be clear I think that a new physical format is needed for an 8K physical format and that most likely means it won't be the BDA the same way that BD, 3D BD and UHD BD were not from the DVD forum. It will most likely be a lot pof the same players, but a different group IMHO

Business 101 . . . follow the money.

isn't that the problem you think follow the money means leaving a lot of easy money on the table

[HeavyHitter]

As I've stated before, I think something like a hard drive of 8K movies (Uber duper crazy Sony Superbit, etc.) of a 'boxset' of movies has a far better chance of happening vs disc. Connect the drive to your display/projector, and then bam.

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by Anthony P

isn't that the problem you think follow the money means leaving a lot of easy money on the table

What lot of "easy" money? Almost no one owns an 8K TV making the demand for 8K content essentially non-existent.

8K TVs only comprised 0.15% of all TV shipments in 2021, so by deduction how much demand can their even be for 8K content? Without that demand, who is going to provide it?

"8K accounted for just 0.15 percent of all TV shipments in 2021, or about 350,000 total units."

https://www.extremetech.com/electron...lready-falling

An 8K physical format would require a lost of financial investment and what financial return can they hope to gain from it in an ever declining physical media market? People are not exactly embracing 4K discs; what is there about an 8K physical format that would entice them?

You need an agreement from all parties on a new format standard; you need the new media itself and all of the start-up, manufacturing, distribution, and marketing costs that go with it; you need studios to agree to provide 8K content; you need new hardware to play the new format with similar start-up costs like with the new media itself; and you need for people to buy 8K displays, which, so far, they aren't doing.

If 4K discs can't even crack 10% of the ever shrinking physical media market, what could potential investors in an 8K physical format hope to see? 8K as a physical format is a fantasy. I enjoy fantasies as much as anyone, but that's all that they are.

[Anthony P]

Originally Posted by Vilya

I would be damn surprised to see an 8K physical format when at this point all 8K offers is a modest increase in resolution that requires that you sit uncomfortably close to very large screens just to be able to perceive the difference over 4K.

When I went from SD to HD and then from HD to UUHD I moved my seats closer to the screen, IMHO resolution is still the limiting factor as to how close my first row can be (i.e. comfort was closer but PQ was annoying)

but except for that I agree with your basic premise, any new format needs to be more than just a bump in resolution, that has always been true.

[\quote]Seeing as 4K discs have thus far not been able to rejuvenate the physical media market, or even capture a decent share of it, how is a new 8K physical format that only offers barely perceptible improvements in resolution going to succeed? The 4K disc format could not revive disc sales; what possible chance could an 8K format have?[/QUOTE]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

That's a bingo. Studios and labels wouldn't release stuff on 4K if they weren't making some money from it, and the added margins on 4K are one reason why the indies in particular are all scrambling to get involved after keeping it at arm's length for years. But it's not some new gold rush, it's high quality physical media's last gasp and they're getting in there while the patient still has a pulse.

There will be 8K content for sure, but there won't be an 8K disc format to play it on.

isn't that the problem with both your points.

There was a time when most people rented VHS tapes and some people bought films on LD ( to keep things simple).
then DVD cam out and even though it was not accurate (some people rented what ever DVD was at the rental place while others search out and were buying the DTS, wide screen, superbit.... to get a better experience) but it all got lumped in together and you think there is room for only one and it has to equal what DVD was at its highest.

None of that is true there was and will always be room for niche markets. The reality is that there is nothing but niche with some being larger and some being smaller. some with big numbers but little profit (like subscription streaming) others with smaller numbers but larger profits (someone today buying a UHD BD).

The difference is You guys for some reason think it will change and all companies will say we don't want those small very profitable niche markets in the future while I think all those markets exist and will continue to exist. Doing so other wise means leaving money on the table.

[Anthony P]

Originally Posted by Vilya

What lot of "easy" money? Almost no one owns an 8K TV making the demand for 8K content essentially non-existent.

agree.

But let's do a recap so we are on the same page

One guy thinks by 2026-2028 we will have 8k physical media because new formats come out around every 10 years. I think for too many people the cycle has been too short which hurts the market .

Some guys like Geoff think there will never be an 8k physical format.

I don't agree with either of them I think we will get an 8k physicals format eventually but, that the powers that be see what I see and will come out with it in roughly 10 years from now and not 5 years.

So the question is not how many people own a 8k TV in 2022 but how many will own one in 2032.

No matter what 2022 does not matter because making a new format takkes years.

as for What lot of "easy" money? for example myself. At this point I don't spend any on DVD, have not done so in decades, I don't spend on HD BD have not done so in years I will never spend money on digital (I am not a renter and IMHO you can't own digital) and at some point I won't consider UHD BD good enough for me to spend my money on it and when that time comes if there is nothing else I will be happy watching the thousands of films I already have copies for and will save all that money that they won't get.

[LordoftheRings]

8K is like 3D; it'll take a long time before it can fly straight.

But it'll come; it's just that some of us won't be here anymore ... they'll be flying between hell and heaven.

* Bonus:
Qualcomm Snapdragon 8 Gen 1 / 8K HDR mobile smartphone video capture.

Professional-quality 8K HDR video with Snapdragon 8 Gen 1 - YouTube

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by Anthony P

agree.
So the question is not how many people own a 8k TV in 2022 but how many will own one in 2032.

The interest in owning an 8K TV will have to grow exponentially from their current 0.15% of global TV sales if 8K TVs are ever to be commonplace in our homes even a decade from now.

That's kind of the point of that statistic; the percentage is minuscule because of a lack of consumer interest in 8K. Most people do not see any benefit in 8K and unless something remarkable happens to make them into believers, 8K will continue to be a non-starter.

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by Anthony P

None of that is true there was and will always be room for niche markets.

Sure. Niche markets can be very profitable when they have enough enthusiastic supporters to keep them viable and worthwhile.

But where is that enthusiasm for 8K? Even here at blu-ray.com where movie and home theater s and geeks dominate the discussions, where is the enthusiasm for 8K? If you can't find much love for 8K, here at blu-ray.com of all places, where else will you find it?

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by LordoftheRings

8K is like 3D; it'll take a long time before it can fly straight.

But it'll come;

8K content is here now...and it is brought to you by youtube and your ISP.

Enjoy:

Many Cute Kittens Collection 8K Video ULTRA HD - YouTube

[LordoftheRings]

Originally Posted by Vilya

Sure. Niche markets can be very profitable when they have enough enthusiastic supporters to keep them viable and worthwhile.

8K is like super yachts, like super 8 ... true that niche of profits.
8K is like the lowest numbers (single digit) on car's licence plates in Dubai and Abu Dhabi.
The kings pay millions of dollars for them ... in the 8 digits, just for the prestige, the status.

But where is that enthusiasm for 8K? Even here at blu-ray.com where movie and home theater s and geeks dominate the discussions, where is the enthusiasm for 8K? If you can't find much love for 8K, here at blu-ray.com of all places, where else will you find it?

Among 8K TV manufacturers, that's about it.

* To get a real 8K shot of adrenaline you need someone like Elon Musk to support it, to manufacture it and to sell it.

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by LordoftheRings

Among 8K TV manufacturers, that's about it.

The margins on those 8K TVs are probably very nice...when they can actually sell one.

[LordoftheRings]

Originally Posted by Vilya

8K content is here now...and it is brought to you by youtube and your ISP.

Enjoy:

Many Cute Kittens Collection 8K Video ULTRA HD - YouTube

It's here that for shure. But before it's here everywhere we'll have colonies on Mars.

[LordoftheRings]

Originally Posted by Vilya

The margins on those 8K TVs are probably very nice...when they can actually sell one.

Let's ask Robert ...

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by Anthony P

When I went from SD to HD and then from HD to UUHD I moved my seats closer to the screen, IMHO resolution is still the limiting factor as to how close my first row can be (i.e. comfort was closer but PQ was annoying)

but except for that I agree with your basic premise, any new format needs to be more than just a bump in resolution, that has always been true.

Seeing as 4K discs have thus far not been able to rejuvenate the physical media market, or even capture a decent share of it, how is a new 8K physical format that only offers barely perceptible improvements in resolution going to succeed? The 4K disc format could not revive disc sales; what possible chance could an 8K format have?



isn't that the problem with both your points.

There was a time when most people rented VHS tapes and some people bought films on LD ( to keep things simple).
then DVD cam out and even though it was not accurate (some people rented what ever DVD was at the rental place while others search out and were buying the DTS, wide screen, superbit.... to get a better experience) but it all got lumped in together and you think there is room for only one and it has to equal what DVD was at its highest.

None of that is true there was and will always be room for niche markets. The reality is that there is nothing but niche with some being larger and some being smaller. some with big numbers but little profit (like subscription streaming) others with smaller numbers but larger profits (someone today buying a UHD BD).

The difference is You guys for some reason think it will change and all companies will say we don't want those small very profitable niche markets in the future while I think all those markets exist and will continue to exist. Doing so other wise means leaving money on the table.

It's easy enough to wax lyrical about leaving money on the table WHEN A MEDIUM ALREADY EXISTS. That's what you don't get with these scenarios of yours. 4K disc exists but 8K disc does not and no-one in their right mind is going to spend a lot of money (yes, literally millions of dollars) to design and create an entirely new disc format and associated playback hardware when disc is dying on its arse. There's "niche", then there's "who wants to spend millions and millions just to create a format that'll be supported by a couple thousand people at most?". They're not going to plough money into it just to make a couple of quid, that's not how business works. It's almost breathtakingly naive, like the equivalent of someone creating a new vinyl format that runs at a different RPM and needs brand new hardware to play it, who the hell's gonna do that when the current one will suffice? They're not leaving money on the table when they'd have to spend so much to make it happen in the first place that the income wouldn't put a dent in what was spent on it.

Some might argue that they could jury rig 8K into the UHD disc spec, just as UHD was itself an extension of BD, as they've already updated the BDXL recordable spec to allow for 8K off-air recording using HEVC compression. But what's fine for TV recording - which like streaming is generally at a much lower bitrate than disc - isn't going to cut it for disc, you'd get about an hour, maybe 90 minutes of decently high quality on a UHD100 (as mass replicated 128GB quad layer discs are out of the question, they've literally only just become available for BDXL recording after being vapourware for like 10 years and mass-replication yields would be astonishingly low). So if they start looking at next-next-next-gen codecs like VP9 or AV1 to squeeze more onto a UHD100 then that requires working groups, tech assessments, lots of money spent to research and approve across all BDA (or whatever hypothetical future organisation, though what difference it makes I'm not sure) members and then they have to look at upgrading the hardware because a firmware update ain't gonna do it.

That's the thing about creating a new disc format, it doesn't just spring up out of a hole in the ground. It needs the backing of a collective of software and hardware providers to make it happen, and with hardware sales of disc spinners also falling off of a cliff it's hard to see where any corporate enthusiasm will come from, not least because of Samsung and OPPO's exit from the disc-playing market entirely. There's so little competition now that the remaining companies don't even bother to tart up their players every year with a new hat like in the old days, there's no point as there's nothing else they can do with the tech. That said, remember when HD first started to be a thing and we got HD upscaling DVD players, then when 4K started circling we got 4K upscaling BD players? It's rather telling that no manufacturer has done/is doing an 8K upscaling UHD player to shill their 8K TVs.

As for it coming in 10 years' time, I literally lol'ed. Disc will be all but dead as a mass market proposition in 10 years. The indies will keep it going a la vinyl but it's not like they're gonna get together to make 8K disc a reality.

[Misioon_Odisea]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

They're not going to plough money into it just to make a couple of quid, that's not how business works. It's almost breathtakingly naive, like the equivalent of someone creating a new vinyl format that runs at a different RPM and needs brand new hardware to play it, who the hell's gonna do that when the current one will suffice?

Boy, do I have the news for you about that specifically... Most likely you've already read about this since minute one, but just in case I think it's worth sharing with y'all anyways, now that you brought that up here.

Ladies and gentlemen, T Bone Burnett presents to the world: The Ionic Original. (Yep, that's right, that's the name!)

Originally Posted by Aneesa Ahmed

INVENTOR CREATES CD-VINYL HYBRID THAT SOUNDS BETTER "THAN ANY OTHER FORMAT"

Creator T Bone Burnett said it's the "first breakthrough in analog sound reproduction in more than 70 years."

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by Misioon_Odisea

Boy, do I have the news for you about that specifically... Most likely you've already read about this since minute one, but just in case I think it's worth sharing with y'all anyways, now that you brought that up here.

Ladies and gentlemen, T Bone Burnett presents to the world: The Ionic Original. (Yep, that's right, that's the name!)

I wasn't being all ironical as this the first I've heard of it, but it's no less absurd a notion just because some kooky producer has actually done it! Particularly if it ends up costing an obscene amount of money, the flowery language used to describe the disc already seems like it's aiming at the hardcore audiophiles who'd think nothing of spending two grand on a meter of wire. But one man does not a video disc make as there are a lot more moving parts (metaphorically speaking) with motion picture content, and it's not a coincidence that some of T Bone's own work with Dylan will be first up on Ionic Originals.

But yes, mind blown. Perhaps it'll be Anthony P who'll invent 8K disc himself and we'll see such an article a decade hence?

[mkozlows]

Originally Posted by Anthony P

When I went from SD to HD and then from HD to UUHD I moved my seats closer to the screen, IMHO resolution is still the limiting factor as to how close my first row can be (i.e. comfort was closer but PQ was annoying)

Unless you're a "sit in the first row in the movie theater by preference" weirdo, that's just never going to be meaningfully true for a 4K vs 8K difference. If you're annoyed by picture quality, it's almost certainly compression artifacts that are bothering you, and 8K won't help improve that situation one bit.

Like, it's notable that in the test Geoff linked to, where even the people sitting 5 feet away from an 88" screen (which is way too close for normal watching rather than image evaluation) could barely see a 4K/8K difference, they were testing completely uncompressed content. Throw normal streaming compression rates on that, and now your test has nothing to do with resolution whatsoever.

Which gets at the great irony of "8K is better" nonsense: Far from being in a world where 4K image quality is maxed out and we're struggling to find a way to get better than perfect 4K, we're serving up garbage 4K on streaming services, stuff that's clearly and inarguably inferior to what you get on a disc, and most people think it's already great.

You're right that there will continue to be a "weirdos who super care about quality" niche, but that niche will be served by lower-compression, high-bitrate 4K (whether physical or in niche digital form like Kaleidescape).

[unberechenbar]

Originally Posted by mkozlows

Like, it's notable that in the test Geoff linked to, where even the people sitting 5 feet away from an 88" screen (which is way too close for normal watching rather than image evaluation) could barely see a 4K/8K difference, they were testing completely uncompressed content. Throw normal streaming compression rates on that, and now your test has nothing to do with resolution whatsoever.

5 feet away is hardly "way too close" for resolutions above 4K. I sit 4 feet away from a 65-inch screen.

[mkozlows]

I said five feet away from an 88" screen, which is much closer than the "40 degrees of arc" THX recommendation (which is itself closer than the 30 degree SMPTE recommendation).

For a 65" TV, six feet is the recommendation. If you enjoy sitting closer, cool, have fun with it, but also be aware that you're doing something more than a little weird. (And even at that, the chart that you posted shows that you won't see a difference at that distance even on perfect content!)

[Rick Grimes]

Originally Posted by unberechenbar

5 feet away is hardly "way too close" for resolutions above 4K. I sit 4 feet away from a 65-inch screen.

I’ve read the Japanese like 8K ‘cos at pretty much any reasonable distance, pixels are indistinguishable to the naked eye. For me, a 55” 4K TV at 2m viewing distance looks fantastic. I would not need to buy an 8K TV, and so would a lot of other people.