8K discussion thread

[nick4Knight]

Originally Posted by Vilya

I feel like I found a bargain!



https://pro.sony/ue_US/products/broa...tors/bvm-hx310

https://www.fullcompass.com/prod/604...r=36058-604342

Only $33,370.63! Well below that 6-7 figure estimate given earlier for a pro grade monitor.

Is that $3,370.63 cents on the end of the price tag what it costs to make those extra colours rendered on the outside of the display as well? What sorcery is this!

Sony, you've done it again.

[mkozlows]

Originally Posted by Lee A Stewart

Ever hear "content is king?' That's why 8K TVs have such a poor showing in sales. There is no content. Maybe some day there will be but for the last 3 years and the foreseeable future - NADA. That translates into poor sales numbers for 8K TVs.

The thing that cracks me up about this thread is that I keep reading the "pessimistic" takes on 8K and thinking that it's actually much too optimistic. "8K TVs don't sell because the content isn't there" is, I think, wrong for two reasons:

The first reason is simple: When people are excited for a format, they'll buy it before the content exists. In 2013, there was effectively no 4K content available; Netflix would launch its first show in 4K the next year (and even then, it would only be one single season of one single show that they offered). Amazon wouldn't start 4K streaming until December 2014, with limited offerings in some regions and only supporting a few brands of TV. The UHD-BD disc format wouldn't come around until 2016.

And yet, 1.6 million 4K TVs were sold that year -- a year in which owners couldn't watch 4K content from basically anywhere! -- which is like five times how many 8K TVs sold in 2021.

So it's not true that you need content for hardware to take off; if the capabilities of the hardware are exciting, people will buy it in advance of the content being there. 8K is failing because its capabilities are not exciting.

That's the first reason I think the "8K is failing due to lack of content" is wrong. The second is the other side of that: Even if there were 8K content, the obvious empirical fact is that virtually nobody would care.

We can see this already with 4K, where people care way less about 4K than you'd imagine. Just look at Netflix: If you want to play 4K/HDR content on Netflix, you need to subscribe to their premium plan. Netflix doesn't break out how many people subscribe to which plan, but they do provide ARPU (Average Revenue Per User). For the United States, their ARPU in 2022 is $15.95. Their 1080p-only plan is $15.49, and 4K costs $19.99. You can solve for x pretty easily to see that most people aren't on the 4K plan.

(To be fair, the math is a little trickier, because there's also a $9.99 480p-only plan, but "actually a bunch of people are happy with SD" isn't really a counterpoint to this argument, is it?)

Similar effects play out on disc. In the most recent week, 1080p BD outsold UHD-BD 3:1 (I'm even politely ignoring that DVD is the vastly more popular disc format here, because I think the DVD market is weird and not really comparable to the BD/UHD-BD disc market.)

So this is a place where there's tons of content available, probably the majority of Netflix's subscribers have 4K displays, and yet most people don't find it worth an extra $4.50/month to get 4K. And, as we've been over in this thread many times, the 1080P SDR -> 4K HDR difference is much, much, much, much larger than the effectively undetectable and worthless 4K -> 8K difference.

So here it's clear that even if there were 8K content, that wouldn't automatically lead to a pile of 8K TVs being sold. There's a bit of a fantasy that if everyone would just start making content in 8K, that it would suddenly jump to prominence, and it's just not true.

8K is, due to its utter and absolute pointlessness, a doomed format. The TVs don't sell because basically nobody cares. The content doesn't exist because basically nobody cares. And the reason that nobody cares is because it doesn't matter. And there's no amount of technical change or market shifts or whatever that can make it matter, because that's math, biology, and physics.

[Anthony P]

Originally Posted by Lee A Stewart

Cripes! Learn some math will you. They just don't sell enough pro monitors to even come close to what you are suggesting. And it's obvious you have no idea how much pro monitors cost. 6 or 7 digits - $100,000 to $1 million?

Originally Posted by Vilya

I feel like I found a bargain!

https://pro.sony/ue_US/products/broa...tors/bvm-hx310

https://www.fullcompass.com/prod/604...r=36058-604342

Only $33,370.63! Well below that 6-7 figure estimate given earlier for a pro grade monitor.

that is like making fun of someone saying cars can cost in the 6-7 digits because you found a 2018 Kia for 33k$. Try googeling Zeus Titan, it is just a 4k display and not even close to the most expensive currently on the market but since I have a good idea on the price, I think you will find it interesting.

Ever hear "content is king?' That's why 8K TVs have such a poor showing in sales. There is no content. Maybe someday there will be but for the last 3 years and the foreseeable future - NADA. That translates into poor sales numbers for 8K TVs.

agree, never disputed that content is king, that is my point after all. I just don't think the content needs to be there exactly. If someone said, have the specs, we will have good 8k content soon and it will be compatible with current TVs that will be enough to get people (like myself) interested in running out and buying a 8k TV now. The issue IMHO is that as long as we don't know the content distribution specs buying an 8k TV is gambling. Maybe the 8k (when it shows up) will play properly on the TV I buy now from the player I will buy maybe (like with HD and UHD) there will be a new HDMI (let's call it 3.0 as an example) and I won't be able to get all the benefits from the new format.

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by Anthony P

that is like making fun of someone saying cars can cost in the 6-7 digits because you found a 2018 Kia for 33k$. Try googeling Zeus Titan, it is just a 4k display and not even close to the most expensive currently on the market but since I have a good idea on the price, I think you will find it interesting.

The Titan Zeus is a very interesting, very expensive, HUGE 370" 4K TV, but it is not a professional grade monitor and that is what I thought we were talking about.

https://hiconsumption.com/1-7-millio...ch-television/

https://titanscreens.com/

Originally Posted by Anthony P

...there is a hell of a difference between selling that 300$ TV to a consumer and that 6 or 7 digit display in the professional market? It costs a lot more to make 10,000 300$ displays then 1 3M$ display and in the end the revenue is similar.

The Titan Zeus is just a gigantic TV for the rich. It may also be a commercial product, but it is not a professional product such as what a movie studio would use. And for all of its hefty $1.7 million dollar price tag it can't display colors beyond the confines of its screen like the one I showed .

[Vilya]

I'm just speculating, but I don't see 8K TVs becoming the norm unless the manufacturers do what they did to shove 4K TVs upon us: eliminate (mostly) the previous technology.

If people could still choose between plain ol' 1080p HD TVs in all screen sizes and 4K TVs, would 4K TVs be as commonplace as they are now? Just how popular would 4K TVs be if people really had a choice between them and ordinary HD TVs?

If 8K TVs become the only choice then people will eventually buy them, but that doesn't mean it is because they really wanted an 8K TV.

[Lee A Stewart]

Originally Posted by Vilya

I'm just speculating, but I don't see 8K TVs becoming the norm unless the manufacturers do what they did to shove 4K TVs upon us: mostly eliminate the previous technology.

If people could still choose between plain ol' 1080p HD TVs in all screen sizes and 4K TVs, would 4K TVs be as commonplace as they are now? Just how popular would 4K TVs be if people really had a choice between them and ordinary HD TVs?

If 8K TVs become the only choice then people will eventually buy them, but that doesn't mean it is because they really wanted an 8K TV.

You are referring to Economies of Scale. For those not famaliar with this:

Economies of scale refers to the phenomenon where the average costs per unit of output decrease with the increase in the scale or magnitude of the output being produced by a firm.

It's cheaper to make only 65" 4K TVs than it is to make both HD and 4K 65" TVs. The TV OEMS have been doing this since HDTV became a mass market product.

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by Lee A Stewart

You are referring to Economies of Scale. For those not famaliar with this:

It's cheaper to make only 65" 4K TVs than it is to make both HD and 4K 65" TVs. The TV OEMS have been doing this since HDTV became a mass market product.

Yes, but there is a difference between having to buy the latest TV tech offered, because that's all there is to choose from, and really wanting what that latest tech offers.

Personally, I know several holdouts hanging on to their HD TVs because 4K TVs, and 4K content, does not impress them all that much. They can see the differences, but they are not "wowed" by them. For them, no "wow" factor means no sale...until their existing TV dies, anyway.

8K TVs, so far, have even less of a "wow" factor. I don't know of anyone even interested enough to go see one on display.

[Lee A Stewart]

Originally Posted by Vilya

Yes, but there is a difference between having to buy the latest TV tech offered, because that's all there is to choose from, and really wanting what that latest tech offers.

It's a moot point. You don't have a choice. Whether you wanted a 4K TV is immaterial. You're getting one.

Personally, I know several holdouts hanging on to their HD TVs because 4K TVs, and 4K content, does not impress them all that much. They can see the differences, but they are not "wowed" by them. For them, no "wow" factor means no sale...until their existing TV dies, anyway.

Surprise Surprise! Not everyone upgrades their TV when new tech appears. Many only upgrade when they are forced to - their exisitng TV dies. And because of Economies Of Scale, they can only buy the lastest and greatest. Their choosen format (HD) is no longer available.

8K TVs, so far, have even less of a "wow" factor. I don't know of anyone even interested enough to go see one on display.

I wonder if the TV OEMS are satisfied with their 8K TV sales numbers. They sure aren't doing anything to lift them. Then again they have nothing in the wings should 8K fail. Remember that 4K was launched only because 3D TV failed.

I was very surprised to see the news out of IFA. The new codecs; VVC and VC1 are being put into 4K TVs - not 8K TVs.

Only Japan committed to 8K TV. All other countries to 4K. No surprise that 8K is not doing well not only in Japan but also the rest of the world. This is the fault of the TV OEMS. If they hadn't gone into Price Wars with 4K TVs there would have been no reason to launch 8K. But they did on both accounts. Now they are raising 4K TV prices by putting more bells lights and whistles on them and they are stuck with very expensive 8K products that no one really wants.

[LexInHD]

Lee meant AV1 not VC1. VC-1 is the old Microsoft-developed codec spun off from WMV-HD and has been present in hardware decoders for many years.

Also, China has committed to 8K. South Korea is dabbling in 8K and putting full support behind developing it like they did with 4K, but UHD/FHD/HD is what works for them in streaming and broadcast usage. Most K-Drama programming is now shot and finished in 4K, to be streamed and broadcast throughout the country for viewing at whatever resolution is applicable to the connectivity and display of the viewer.

[PaulGo]

HDR made 4K TV's a compelling reason to buy. 8K needs something similar to get that masses to prefer that format (perhaps glasses free 3D).

[Lee A Stewart]

Originally Posted by PaulGo

HDR made 4K TV's a compelling reason to buy. 8K needs something similar to get that masses to prefer that format (perhaps glasses free 3D).

It won't be Autostereoscopic 3D (no glasses). They still haven't figured out how to do multiple (3 - 5) person watches. 1 & 2 - no problem. Any more than that - it doesn't work.

Plus 3D is pretty much all you can watch. All 2D material is "facockta."

[LexInHD]

HDR should have been developed and perfected on HDTVs and Blu-Ray. Had that happened, things would have gone a lot smoother in moving to UHDTVs and UHD-BD.

[Lee A Stewart]

New 8K TVs Illegal from 2023 in the EU?

The 8K Association has issued a 'call for action' over new TV energy consumption regulations that are due to be implemented in the EU in March and which could mean that new 8K sets cannot be sold in the region.

The regulations were set in place some time ago and although the levels of energy set for UltraHD and FullHD sets were based on sets that were being sold at the time, the level for 8K was set to be the same as for UltraHD. That's a real challenge for the industry as both OLED and LCD technologies use more power in the display and the processing needed for 8K signals also uses more power.

The Regulations say that they should be reviewed by December this year, but as far as the 8K Association knows, it said in an article, there is no review date set. On the face of it, then, new 8K sets may not be introduced after March unless they meet the power requirements.

https://www.displaydaily.com/article...2023-in-the-eu

I believe that also pertains to California - not sure on that. Boy that's a big hurdle to over come.

[Anthony P]

Originally Posted by Vilya

The Titan Zeus is a very interesting, very expensive, HUGE 370" 4K TV, but it is not a professional grade monitor and that is what I thought we were talking about.

https://hiconsumption.com/1-7-millio...ch-television/

https://titanscreens.com/



The Titan Zeus is just a gigantic TV for the rich. It may also be a commercial product, but it is not a professional product such as what a movie studio would use. And for all of its hefty $1.7 million dollar price tag it can't display colors beyond the confines of its screen like the one I showed .

since when does professional mean limited by "a studio will use"?

this display is 15' tall by 32' wide, it won't fit through even most extremely rich people's doors and in their rooms. Displays like this are either used for signage (which is why you can get it built with weather proofing for outdoor use) or for theatre rooms (like when we had the discussion of theatres with direct view displays)

[Lee A Stewart]

Originally Posted by Anthony P

since when does professional mean limited by "a studio will use"?

this display is 15' tall by 32' wide, it won't fit through even most extremely rich people's doors and in their rooms. Displays like this are either used for signage (which is why you can get it built with weather proofing for outdoor use) or for theatre rooms (like when we had the discussion of theatres with direct view displays)

And how many do they sell per year?

[Anthony P]

Originally Posted by Vilya

I'm just speculating, but I don't see 8K TVs becoming the norm unless the manufacturers do what they did to shove 4K TVs upon us: eliminate (mostly) the previous technology.

If people could still choose between plain ol' 1080p HD TVs in all screen sizes and 4K TVs, would 4K TVs be as commonplace as they are now? Just how popular would 4K TVs be if people really had a choice between them and ordinary HD TVs?

If 8K TVs become the only choice then people will eventually buy them, but that doesn't mean it is because they really wanted an 8K TV.

It isn't about "force" but economic reality.

Right now 8K is still relatively expensive both for manufacturers and for consumers to buy (like it was at one point in time for 4k but most of it was on the professional side). But as time passes the difference in manufacturing costs gets smaller and small rand eventually insignificant. at that point even most of the people looking for cheap and small look and say "who cares if there is a 10$ difference" and it becomes useless for retailers to keep the one that is not selling well with lower margins in stock.

It is why I can't go and buy a brand new 20GB HDD or 8mb USB flash drive any more either.

[Anthony P]

Originally Posted by Lee A Stewart

And how many do they sell per year?

don't know, don't care, If you do care ask someone from the company that question.

they just make displays for the professional market and not the consumer market so I would gues sthey sale more professional displays than consumer displays.

I pointed out displays on the professional side can reach 6-7 digits and you said

And it's obvious you have no idea how much pro monitors cost. 6 or 7 digits - $100,000 to $1 million?

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by Anthony P

don't know, don't care, If you do care ask someone from the company that question.

they just make displays for the professional market and not the consumer market so I would gues sthey sale more professional displays than consumer displays.

I pointed out displays on the professional side can reach 6-7 digits and you said

They make displays for whomever is wealthy enough to buy them.

We know nothing about their customers or what purpose they had in mind for their 370" TV.

Originally Posted by Anthony P

since when does professional mean limited by "a studio will use"?

this display is 15' tall by 32' wide, it won't fit through even most extremely rich people's doors and in their rooms.

I never said "limited." I said "such as" and gave an example of professional use.

Anyone who can afford to buy a TV that costs $1.7 million dollars can afford to have it installed in their home even if it means removing a section of the roof and lowering it in by crane. A person that rich could also have an entire new room added to their home designed especially to accommodate this behemoth.

[Lee A Stewart]

Originally Posted by Anthony P

don't know, don't care, If you do care ask someone from the company that question.

they just make displays for the professional market and not the consumer market so I would gues sthey sale more professional displays than consumer displays.

I pointed out displays on the professional side can reach 6-7 digits and you said

Your words EXACTLY: Professional Grade. That denotes studio monitors. Not those displays used for movie and TV production ala The Mandalorian and the Samsung MicroLED stages.

Even with those included they don't come anywheres near the 210 MILLION TVs sold world wide in 2021.

But I understand you will never admit defeat in an argument. That's the reason I have zero respect for anything you say. All you care about is being right - not accurate.

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by Anthony P

It isn't about "force" but economic reality.

Right now 8K is still relatively expensive both for manufacturers and for consumers to buy (like it was at one point in time for 4k but most of it was on the professional side). But as time passes the difference in manufacturing costs gets smaller and small rand eventually insignificant. at that point even most of the people looking for cheap and small look and say "who cares if there is a 10$ difference" and it becomes useless for retailers to keep the one that is not selling well with lower margins in stock.

It is why I can't go and buy a brand new 20GB HDD or 8mb USB flash drive any more either.

8K TVs will go nowhere unless they become the only type of TV offered. There is virtually no enthusiasm for them, not even here at blu-ray.com.