HDR Discussion Thread

[DanBa]

Originally Posted by Robert Zohn

Do you have a link to Peter P's comments. I'd love to read his opinion on this.

https://www.displaydaily.com/article...re-we-go-again

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by DanBa

https://www.displaydaily.com/article...re-we-go-again

8K really is an answer that's been provided without a question having been asked. I know it was easy enough to say that about 4K five years ago (but at least it had a long-term basis within the film industry prior to that), and if we to read one of Bill Hunt's missives from back then it would probably rehash some of the same 'push back' that 8K is experiencing now, but the signs really aren't there this time around IMO.

As he ^ says I also happen to think that 8K panel production will mean that larger TV sizes will be 8K by default in a few years, just as anyone looking for a high quality >65" 1080p display will be SOOL now, but everything else isn't looking great. There are zero rumours of an 8K disc format, unlike five years ago with 4K, and while OTT delivery has indeed been the main driver of "real 4K"-finished content which I also think will happen with 8K too* it's still like pulling teeth to get theatrical movies and TV broadcasts produced in 4K end-to-end (Japanese TV notwithstanding), so where more than a handful of 8K-finished movies are going to come from is beyond my ken. Talk of the superior AI upscaling is grand and all, but there will come a point when it can only do so much with the legacy content that we have (I've got the DVD of Alien playing in the background on my ZD9 as I type ).

Not that TVs are used only with movies, of course not, and as streaming gains ever more ground then 8K OTT content will find its own niche with these displays, but as matey acknowledged there's no unique USP that will help push 8K adoption, no 'new HDR' on the horizon with which to tempt punters. Some people think that glassless 3D will be that new USP, but there's zero sign of it yet. We'll have to wait for our Lord and Saviour JC (Cameron, not that Christ fella) to come to that particular rescue.

*Netflix have already got some 6K stuff on their books: https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/be...-waters-779131

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by DisplayCalNoob

At one point Sony didn't think they needed dynamic metadata or dynamic tone mapping. There was rampant confusion and misinformation being spreaded about the nature of dynamic metadata and it represented, concerning high peak not didplays vs lower peak nit displays.

Given how Dolby Vision on Sony TVs has been less than amazing (for what seems like a quite a few people, not just myself) I'm not surprised that they've developed their own dynamic tone mapping option as seen on the AF9.

[Robert Zohn]

From reading the article, all of the comments as well as TV Technology's 8K article and the significant time I spent with all of the 8K TVS at CES on the floor and in the private off site suites with the engineers and product managers here's my take. (Sorry for the run-on sentence)

First, I can tell you all of the 8K TVs I saw at CES displayed a stunning image. Of course, the content was carefully selected to exploit the best they can display and some demo'd native 8K HDR content; most was 4K HDR and again they all scaled the 4K HDR content to 8K beautifully.

Also note that all of the 8K TVs were each companies best in class so these were all the very best premium TVs with the latest and best panels and video processors. So at least we can say and agree that 4K content up-converts very nicely and looks stunning on large 8K displays.

Regarding the future of 8K content, we do have some very good applications, like sports when the video switching director selects a long shot and zooms the image so the viewers at home will see a close up of the action. Enlarging an 8K image will maintain much of it's sharpness and detail far better than lower resolution images.

If we get BD in 8K, Hollywood films will be able to render more of the natural continuous tonal range and maintain more detail that is inherit in film.

Also note that I expect we'll see 8K ascend to using the full color gamut of BT2020 and hopefully over the next two years we'll see 12bit panels that will greatly benefit all of the extra resolution that 8K offers.

My final thoughts for now, with no 8K content in the USA, I'l be buying one of the upcoming 8K HDR mirrorless cameras and creating my own content for our 8K store demo TVs. We'll also be playing 4K BDs and streaming as well as checking out FHD/SDR cable.

Love to hear member comments.

[Geoff D]

"Good-looking hand-picked content in 'upscales very nicely on the showfloor' shocker"

8K as a tech isn't inherent to full colour gamut reproduction or 12-bit depth either, those are natural progressions that display technology will eventually hit whether it's 8K or not. And while Sony's waffle about pixels may well have some benefit for the ultra-ultra highest fidelity content, it's not going to apply to the inherent grain and ever-changing temporal instability of the vast majority of movies ever shot on film.

And those sports zooms, as we see with 4K now, are a canny usage of the 4K/8K tech but they're not actually about delivering a 4K/8K-rez image to the end user, we're literally seeing a quarter of it.

[Robert Zohn]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

"Good-looking hand-picked content in 'upscales very nicely on the showfloor' shocker"

8K as a tech isn't inherent to full colour gamut reproduction or 12-bit depth either, those are natural progressions that display technology will eventually hit whether it's 8K or not. And while Sony's waffle about pixels may well have some benefit for the ultra-ultra highest fidelity content, it's not going to apply to the inherent grain and ever-changing temporal instability of the vast majority of movies ever shot on film.

And those sports zooms, as we see with 4K now, are a canny usage of the 4K/8K tech but they're not actually about delivering a 4K/8K-rez image to the end user, we're literally seeing a quarter of it.

Just about all 4K HDR discs and 4K HDR streaming content would up-convert to 8K beautifully. So it's not just beneficial to hand selected content.

True that 8K content does not mandate the full BT2020 color gamut or 12 bit panel, but all I was saying is that hopefully next year when we'll see a lot of 8K TVs we'll also hopefully see the use of processors that can decode 100% of BT2020 and 12bit panels that will significantly help 8K displays.

[Geoff D]

Yes, but my point is that they weren't likely to use the UHD of, say, Watchmen or Arrival to demonstrate it, were they? I sold TVs for over a decade so this at least I know of what I speak

[DisplayCalNoob]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Given how Dolby Vision on Sony TVs has been less than amazing (for what seems like a quite a few people, not just myself) I'm not surprised that they've developed their own dynamic tone mapping option as seen on the AF9.

Did you get a calibration or calibrate yourself?

[Geoff D]

Calibrated it myself using a X-rite ColorMunki Photo (for the meter profiling) and CM Display with HCFR.

[LordoftheRings]

Robert, you've just said it beautifully above.

2019 is the year of 8K push. People they can talk all they want about 4K and 3D there is no marching against pictures progress.

And we don't have to wait for Netflix 8K (we have YouTube 8K), we don't have to wait for Hollywood 8K, we don't have to wait for BD 8K, we can make our own movies in 8K. We have the displays to go with them.

Your above post is to the point, and confirms what other video experts wrote in their expert articles. You are 100% in the right hobby/business.

Today is a beautiful day here on the island, sunny, 22° Celsius (72° Fahrenheit) ...
It will only get better ... 8K Celsius

[Robert Zohn]

Ultra large TVs in the USA are very popular so maybe the enhanced resolution will do best in the US market.

I am happy to see all upgrades in video and audio and will have fun creating my own native 8K content and watching as much 4K HDR that I enjoy so very much in my 4K HDR theaters and 4K HDR TVs now.

[DisplayCalNoob]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Calibrated it myself using a X-rite ColorMunki Photo (for the meter profiling) and CM Display with HCFR.

I use HCFR as well, with my Spyder 4 Pro. I did a full SDR calibration. I then used the Gain settings on both HDR10 and DV. Then applied the CMS calibration settings to both, excluding color brightness settings.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by DisplayCalNoob

I use HCFR as well, with my Spyder 4 Pro. I did a full SDR calibration. I then used the Gain settings on both HDR10 and DV. Then applied the CMS calibration settings to both, excluding color brightness settings.

I use the exact same white balance settings for SDR and HDR, yes, seeing as it's all aiming for D65, and they both line up very well indeed.

Such calibration isn't the issue when it comes to Dobly on my TV, it's that the much-lauded dynamic tone mapping capabilities of DV are greatly affected by the TV's own settings. Too high a contrast and bright highlights are obviously blown out, lower the contrast to bring those highlights back and the luminance can take a significant hit, being globally lowered across the range. One might argue that perhaps those highlights weren't meant to be seen in a specific movie, fair enough, except that the tone mapping behaviour is consistent across >2000-nit content on several DV movies, so the TV's settings are STILL controlling the trade-off between range and brightness despite all the dynamic hoopla. It's insane that the little box of tricks inside the Panasonic 820 does a far better job of mapping to my display's own strengths than DV can.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by DisplayCalNoob

At one point Sony didn't think they needed dynamic metadata or dynamic tone mapping. There was rampant confusion and misinformation being spreaded about the nature of dynamic metadata and it what represented, concerning high peak nit displays vs lower peak nit displays.

Perhaps later publicly when the MBA suits got involved in marketing the need/or lack thereof of this or that HDR solution to Joe Q. Public, but not privately among the Sony engineers presenting in the technical development group, e.g. (July 2014) -

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

glassless 3D

I didn’t attend CES 2019 but I found this report interesting…..https://spectrum.ieee.org/view-from-...glassesfree-3d

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by LordoftheRings

Today is a beautiful day....

Ross-on-Wye
https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-r...llian-anderson
(safe for work)

[DJR662]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

I didn’t attend CES 2019 but I found this report interesting…..https://spectrum.ieee.org/view-from-...glassesfree-3d

If 8K will be good for anything (besides a justification for larger screens), it will be glasses free 3D.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

I didn’t attend CES 2019 but I found this report interesting…..https://spectrum.ieee.org/view-from-...glassesfree-3d

Yeah, I mean people have tried before, this effort from Toshiba is from seven years ago https://www.techradar.com/uk/reviews...1080745/review and sounds mightly similar to what Dimenco have done: lenticular filters in front of the screen and cameras that track the user to determine the sweet spot.

[mrtickleuk]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

"Good-looking hand-picked content in 'upscales very nicely on the showfloor' shocker"

8K as a tech isn't inherent to full colour gamut reproduction or 12-bit depth either, those are natural progressions that display technology will eventually hit whether it's 8K or not. And while Sony's waffle about pixels may well have some benefit for the ultra-ultra highest fidelity content, it's not going to apply to the inherent grain and ever-changing temporal instability of the vast majority of movies ever shot on film.

And those sports zooms, as we see with 4K now, are a canny usage of the 4K/8K tech but they're not actually about delivering a 4K/8K-rez image to the end user, we're literally seeing a quarter of it.

This is the order I personally would like to see the technology improve:

• Better uniformity and near-black handling on OLEDs
• Higher nit displays
• More or all of rec.2020 colour gamut and "colour volume"
• 12-bit displays
• Optional higher frame-rates for sport but not movies
• lots and lots of other things next, and ONLY then...
• 8K
• lots and lots of other things next, and ONLY then...
• 3D

I believe that providing unwanted 8K first, before all those other things, is a bad joke.

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by DJR662

If 8K will be good for anything (besides a justification for larger screens), it will be glasses free 3D.

Don’t forget VR. . That goes under 4K technology/Hardware. 8K would deliver Crisp, realistic graphics to games but staying on topic would deliver near 4K visuals for films and immersive theatre.