HDR Discussion Thread

[DJR662]

Originally Posted by Steedeel

Don’t forget VR. . That goes under 4K technology/Hardware. 8K would deliver Crisp, realistic graphics to games but staying on topic would deliver near 4K visuals for films and immersive theatre.

Right now I would be content with just the "old" active or passive 3D making a comeback. Add to that 100% P3, 4000 nits peak brightness and make it an 85" 4K Sony MicroLED, with the overall emphasis on picture quality rather than smart apps, streaming or other so called "useful" features, and I'm good to go.

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by DJR662

Right now I would be content with just the "old" active or passive 3D making a comeback. Add to that 100% P3, 4000 nits peak brightness and make it an 85" 4K Sony MicroLED, with the overall emphasis on picture quality rather than smart apps, streaming or other so called "useful" features, and I'm good to go.

VR is 3D on steroids though.

Yeah, most 3D fans are hoping for a revival with Avatar 2 but I think we know deep down, it isn’t going to happen sadly.

[alexanderg823]

Originally Posted by DisplayCalNoob

At one point Sony didn't think they needed dynamic metadata or dynamic tone mapping. There was rampant confusion and misinformation being spreaded about the nature of dynamic metadata and it what represented, concerning high peak nit displays vs lower peak nit displays.

lol!

This was done by extreme Sony fans (paid influencers?) to justify the ridiculous price premiums over the competition, specifically in reference to the A1E vs the C7... The reviews all showed there was no dynamic metadata on the Sonys, yet the misinformation kept spreading.

It's always really bizarre to see Sony product reception online - it's a totally different animal than pretty much any other brand. A1E, A8F, Z9F, even A9F all medicore to "serviceable" products hyped to the extreme by influencers online as if they're miles ahead of the competition and what they actually are.

A1E/A8F are both good OLEDs, but at the end of the day they're merely rebadged LG OLEDs with questionable Dolby Vision updates, with performance almost exactly the same as the LGs and sold at a hefty premium over the LGs.

A9F again, is a fine product, but with all the hype around "MASTER SERIES", which seems to be an expert marketing gimmick as once again, its performance is virtually the same as the LG OLED and sold at a massive premium.

Z9F is the biggest disappointment of the bunch which is just a mid range LCD with a low zone count and an EPIC PQ fail that banked on the success of its predecessor and falsely leveraged the name of the "Z" brand. Spec wise, we knew it was going to be trash, but the amount of people fighting online that Sony's processing would overcome 100 zones (LOL!) and impressions that borderline lie about its performance and mitigate its massive limitations are are pretty perplexing.

Don't really see this much with other brands.

[DanBa]

Yet other operationally Universal HDR TV: Philips OLED 804 & 854
https://twitter.com/SteveMay_UK/stat...30433767424000

[DisplayCalNoob]

The misinformation about dynamic metadata was spread around by many publications, in articles, even Vincent Teoh had to admit he was misinformed about dynamic metadata and whether or not it was needed on high nit displays. Sony and Samsung fans were convinced, Dolby Vision served no purpose, other than to be a crutch for OLED and lower nit LCD (600 nit) displays.

Penton-Man just posted, that Sony engineers had been in development of there on version of dynamic metadata since 2014.

You figured out why Sony and Samsung refused to add DV, now know that Sony reason is pretty similar to Samsungs.

[alexanderg823]

Originally Posted by DisplayCalNoob

The misinformation about dynamic metadata was spread around by many publications, in articles, even Vincent Teoh had to admit he was misinformed about dynamic metadata and whether or not it was needed on high nit displays. Sony and Samsung fans were convinced, Dolby Vision served no purpose, other than to be a crutch for OLED and lower nit LCD (600 nit) displays.

Penton-Man just posted, that Sony engineers had been in development of there on version of dynamic metadata since 2014.

You figured out why Sony and Samsung refused to add DV, now know that Sony reason is pretty similar to Samsungs.

Just because one is a "publication" does not mean it cannot be a "paid influencer", and also that the "paid" part does not necessarily have to be in cash.

Not going to go into crazy conspiracy theory mode, but the reviews of the Z9F certainly were remarkably favorable with respect to its remarkably lackluster performance. On the LG side the issue of uniformity/banding is always just a footnote and flyby in reviews rather than a true grilling for an issue that is absolutely devastating for many OLED owners out there... But that is certainly different than just making up fake news features for a TV that it does not have that competitors DO have OR giving great reviews for a television that has regressed half a decade of progress in picture quality.

Although I can't recall Vincent Teoh ever admitted to being misled about much. He's been right on the money with regards to what dynamic tone mapping is/can be useful for and the lack of it on various Sony products despite various sources arguing otherwise. Note - I am purposely referring to dynamic tone mapping rather than dynamic metadata.

[DanBa]

Latest Multi-HDR table:
https://twitter.com/DanielBa78/statu...78862136741888



+ Adding Dolby Vision to Philips (TP Vision) TVs
https://twitter.com/StephenWithers/s...34575567130625

[avs commenter]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Yeah, I mean people have tried before, this effort from Toshiba is from seven years ago https://www.techradar.com/uk/reviews...1080745/review and sounds mightly similar to what Dimenco have done: lenticular filters in front of the screen and cameras that track the user to determine the sweet spot.

I do remember this very article and being hyped for this product. Never saw it in stores though.

Reminds me a little of when Toshiba and Cannon thought SED TV's would take over the LCD/Plasma market

https://www.cnet.com/news/toshiba-ca...aunch-to-2007/

[DisplayCalNoob]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

I use the exact same white balance settings for SDR and HDR, yes, seeing as it's all aiming for D65, and they both line up very well indeed.

Such calibration isn't the issue when it comes to Dobly on my TV, it's that the much-lauded dynamic tone mapping capabilities of DV are greatly affected by the TV's own settings. Too high a contrast and bright highlights are obviously blown out, lower the contrast to bring those highlights back and the luminance can take a significant hit, being globally lowered across the range. One might argue that perhaps those highlights weren't meant to be seen in a specific movie, fair enough, except that the tone mapping behaviour is consistent across >2000-nit content on several DV movies, so the TV's settings are STILL controlling the trade-off between range and brightness despite all the dynamic hoopla. It's insane that the little box of tricks inside the Panasonic 820 does a far better job of mapping to my display's own strengths than DV can.

Sounds like the high end of PQ, may not be tracking properly.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by DisplayCalNoob

Sounds like the high end of PQ, may not be tracking properly.

It's tracking very well in HDR10 but in order to keep to the intended brightness curve the highlights start to clip at 1500-2000 nits (a typical Sony trait, they want to preserve APL) which, funnily enough, is exactly where the DV is also clipping. It's like they've set up the DV to follow the TV's own inherent PQ curve rather than DV being able to dynamically adjust it, so I get the exact same dilemma with DV as with the TV's own viewing modes: if I want to resolve >2000 highlights then I need to lower contrast, which then lowers luminance & APL. And as DV appears to be slightly lower brightness anyway than what the HDR10 is measuring when calibrated, even with DV contrast maxed out, then lowering the contrast to recover the >2000 nit range can hit the APL hard, harder than if I were to just change over my TV settings to my existing lower-con '4000 nit' mode.

I recently extolled the virtues of dynamic metadata in the Meg thread, gushing over the DV presentation, and I own every word of it, but whatever the DV is doing on my TV isn't especially "dynamic" after all.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by alexanderg823

lol!

This was done by extreme Sony fans (paid influencers?) to justify the ridiculous price premiums over the competition, specifically in reference to the A1E vs the C7... The reviews all showed there was no dynamic metadata on the Sonys, yet the misinformation kept spreading.

It's always really bizarre to see Sony product reception online - it's a totally different animal than pretty much any other brand. A1E, A8F, Z9F, even A9F all medicore to "serviceable" products hyped to the extreme by influencers online as if they're miles ahead of the competition and what they actually are.

A1E/A8F are both good OLEDs, but at the end of the day they're merely rebadged LG OLEDs with questionable Dolby Vision updates, with performance almost exactly the same as the LGs and sold at a hefty premium over the LGs.

A9F again, is a fine product, but with all the hype around "MASTER SERIES", which seems to be an expert marketing gimmick as once again, its performance is virtually the same as the LG OLED and sold at a massive premium.

Z9F is the biggest disappointment of the bunch which is just a mid range LCD with a low zone count and an EPIC PQ fail that banked on the success of its predecessor and falsely leveraged the name of the "Z" brand. Spec wise, we knew it was going to be trash, but the amount of people fighting online that Sony's processing would overcome 100 zones (LOL!) and impressions that borderline lie about its performance and mitigate its massive limitations are are pretty perplexing.

Don't really see this much with other brands.

I suppose that "rebadged" is technically correct for the panel itself, though it's worth bearing in mind that Sony don't make any of their own panels for LCD either, but for the processing? Nah bruv. For me the Sony processing engine is worth every penny more than what an equivalent panel (be it LCD, OLED, rice paper etc) with LG or Samsung processing would deliver.

As for the "dynamic tone mapping" thing, I recall an AVS podcast video thingy with Scott Whatshisface and a techie from Sony where the guy literally said that Sony TVs analyse the incoming HDR signal and make their own dynamic metadata, which I believed at the time but has been proved to be utter nonsense. Sony's HDR mapping credo has been very, very simple up until now: track the PQ curve as far as the display's actual brightness will allow, then clip the shit out of the rest.

This means that APL remains true, which is great for all those pseudo-HDR presentations that get people kvetching about how dark they look beause the mapping is killing the average brightness e.g. Goodfeathers, but it means that you certainly lose a good chunk of highlight information with brighter content and this gets more damaging the less peak brightness you have to play with...hence the otherwise unheralded "true" dynamic HDR10 mapping that's in the AF9.

[alexanderg823]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

I suppose that "rebadged" is technically correct for the panel itself, though it's worth bearing in mind that Sony don't make any of their own panels for LCD either, but for the processing? Nah bruv. For me the Sony processing engine is worth every penny more than what an equivalent panel (be it LCD, OLED, rice paper etc) with LG or Samsung processing would deliver.

As someone that's owned all of the flagships of Sony/Samsung/LG in various sizes over the past 2 years I'd disagree. The "Sony" processing engine is pure hype.

[MechaGodzilla]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

I suppose that "rebadged" is technically correct for the panel itself, though it's worth bearing in mind that Sony don't make any of their own panels for LCD either, but for the processing? Nah bruv. For me the Sony processing engine is worth every penny more than what an equivalent panel (be it LCD, OLED, rice paper etc) with LG or Samsung processing would deliver.

If Sony, God forbid, quit the TV game tomorrow, who would you go to for your next TV? I'm gonna guess Panasonic would be next in line for Geoffy, considering the things he values in a telly.

Then again, Panny have gone all in on OLED for their high-end sets, haven't they? So if there's no really good FALD LCD on offer that might complicate things...

[alexanderg823]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

As for the "dynamic tone mapping" thing, I recall an AVS podcast video thingy with Scott Whatshisface and a techie from Sony where the guy literally said that Sony TVs analyse the incoming HDR signal and make their own dynamic metadata, which I believed at the time but has been proved to be utter nonsense. Sony's HDR mapping credo has been very, very simple up until now: track the PQ curve as far as the display's actual brightness will allow, then clip the shit out of the rest.

This means that APL remains true, which is great for all those pseudo-HDR presentations that get people kvetching about how dark they look beause the mapping is killing the average brightness e.g. Goodfeathers, but it means that you certainly lose a good chunk of highlight information with brighter content and this gets more damaging the less peak brightness you have to play with...hence the otherwise unheralded "true" dynamic HDR10 mapping that's in the AF9.

Yep, all they ever did up until the AF9 was clip it. Worked fine and Sony HDR 10 has never disappointed me TBH. Now whether that is or isn't better than dynamic/adaptive tone mapping, it depends.

I'm quite pleased with it on my C8 although the LG method is quite refined. I don't know how well the Sony version works in the AF9. Is it a simple, if peak highlight > 650 nit, and max CLL = 4000 use X4000 nit tone curve? This basic example would be that any time the peak pixel in a frame is above 650 it switches to a new tone curve for 4000 nit content. If the pixel is at 651 nit or 4000 nit it doesnt matter it will use the same curve.


Or is there more precision, with a tighter sloped tone mapping curve that changes based on how bright the highlight that peak is? So in this instance, a different tone curve would be applied to a frame with 651 nit than a frame with 4000 nit highlight. The 4,000 nit highlight frame would obviously be tone mapped much more aggressively probably resulting in the stereotypically "dim" HDR image.

OR does it get REALLY dynamic and change the slope of the mapping curve with respect for the brightness of the peak AND the average picture level of the frame? This would mean the tone mapping for that 4,000 nit highlight frame would also consider the overall brightness level of the frame to determine whether it should lower the overall brightness of the image to squeeze everything in, or boost the low end/mid end up a bit to retain the overall impact of the image. This should be the end game for dynamic or adaptive tone mapping algorithms.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by MechaGodzilla

If Sony, God forbid, quit the TV game tomorrow, who would you go to for your next TV? I'm gonna guess Panasonic would be next in line for Geoffy, considering the things he values in a telly.

Then again, Panny have gone all in on OLED for their high-end sets, haven't they? So if there's no really good FALD LCD on offer that might complicate things...

I ain't just gonna stare at a phone that's for sure, we're not in Steedy's dystopian future yet!

If my ZD9 went 'pop' right this second then yeah, another FALD LCD offering isn't looking majorly likely. You couldn't pay me to have a Samsung TV cross this threshold! So it would have to be OLED, despite my misgivings about how my particular viewing habits will jive with the IR, and that Panasonic GZ2000 looks like an absolute monster. It'll probably have a price tag to match, but it'll be worth it.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by alexanderg823

This should be the end game for dynamic or adaptive tone mapping algorithms.

It should indeed, and it's one reason why I'm so pissed about the DV on the ZD9 because it doesn't appear to be making any 'intelligent' decisions whatsoever about what to map down, not striking the balance between brightness and highlight range that you rightly reference. This is how the HDR Optimiser on the Panny players bridges that gap, on every mode it maintains the brightness of the signal at up to 50% (100 nit) which even the poxiest display could manage, ensuring that HDR APL is correctly preserved at least, and then it rolls off the highlight brightness according to wherever it's been set and what metadata it's receiving from the content.

It's not perfect as it's still not a genuine 'scene by scene' adaptation and it kinda throttles the bit depth of the content, also the Optimisation would be even better served by Kris Deering's suggestion of a manual input for what nits the display can handle, but in lieu of any 'dynamic' options (either from a third party or the display's own mapping) it's a nifty bit of kit.

[MechaGodzilla]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

I ain't just gonna stare at a phone that's for sure, we're not in Steedy's dystopian future yet!

If my ZD9 went 'pop' right this second then yeah, another FALD LCD offering isn't looking majorly likely. You couldn't pay me to have a Samsung TV cross this threshold! So it would have to be OLED, despite my misgivings about how my particular viewing habits will jive with the IR, and that Panasonic GZ2000 looks like an absolute monster. It'll probably have a price tag to match, but it'll be worth it.

The GZ2000 does look vair nais indeed. Even nicer is there will most likely be a couple other models below it that offer the same picture without the fancy built-in sound, which for many is a useless feature anyway. But I do know there are peeps that don't care (you're increasingly moving into that group due to your hearing damage IIRC, and it's perfectly understandable you'd favor preserving what you've still got rather than blasting it away with loud noise), or don't have the space for a separate audio system, so I think it's great Panasonic, Philips, etc. are going the extra mile to provide something for those who do want good built-in sound on their TV.

[Geoff D]

Yeah. Something that weaned me off of megablasting surround sound was the fabulous audio from the 'dumbo ears' on the Sony X9005A and B TVs that I had, creating a genuinely fake surround effect with some effective bass too. This is when I was still using an AVR quite a lot, especially for all the disc reviews I was writing, but I knew I was on the slippery slope away from an AVR when I finished watching a movie and thought I'd had the AVR on...but it was the TV's sound all the while

Switching to the ZD9, and reading the reviews that mentioned the shite sound, I thought I was going to be losing a lot but to my surprise the audio on the ZD9 retains that same sense of immersive faux surround, albeit without the same quality as the dumbo ears. I've thought about switching to a soundbar to give me a bit more enhancement without knackering my ears further, but that GZ2000 looks like it would do the job nicely.

[MechaGodzilla]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Yeah. Something that weaned me off of megablasting surround sound was the fabulous audio from the 'dumbo ears' on the Sony X9005A and B TVs that I had, creating a genuinely fake surround effect with some effective bass too. This is when I was still using an AVR quite a lot, especially for all the disc reviews I was writing, but I knew I was on the slippery slope away from an AVR when I finished watching a movie and thought I'd had the AVR on...but it was the TV's sound all the while

Switching to the ZD9, and reading the reviews that mentioned the shite sound, I thought I was going to be losing a lot but to my surprise the audio on the ZD9 retains that same sense of immersive faux surround, albeit without the same quality as the dumbo ears. I've thought about switching to a soundbar to give me a bit more enhancement without knackering my ears further, but that GZ2000 looks like it would do the job nicely.

You ever consider a good 2.0 system? You could still use an AVR with it, and it'd give you good sound without perhaps being a full-on aural assault the same way a full surround setup is.

[Geoff D]

I've got some floorstanders for stereo as it is, never really thought about switching to 2.0 only but if I've got the AVR and the big floorstanders there then I might as well keep the sub and the smaller centre and rears hooked up too. Nah. I just wanna get rid of it all.