HDR Discussion Thread

[DisplayCalNoob]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

And my initial reply was in support of his comment, however bluntly he stated it. The single biggest USP for Dolby Vision in the home is exactly that: to support inadequate displays. Remove that from the equation and it doesn't do more colour or more nits or more whatever than HDR10, that's sheer marketing bullshit. It does however do 12 bits of gradation rather than 10, albeit on the discs which actually have a FEL layer (and streaming doesn't even have that, though it is encoded in ITP unlike discs), which should give smoother gradations even on a 10-bit display owing to the powah of oversampling. But if HDR10 is handled competently then banding should not be an issue, same goes for the fixing of dodgy chroma compression when it should not be that bad in the first place. Though most people don't even see these things anyway!

Dolby Vision is a fine system, but I'm not after hagiography. That's what annoys me about the blogosphere when it comes to HDR: all too often it's the Devil's work to some and the light shining out of God's arse on the other, each one driven by their own share of misinformation, misunderstanding and/or marketing sizzle.

Yeah, I stopped reading any blogs, and focused my reading to Dolby whitepapers, colorist interviews(some connected to MixingLight, patents, post here and abroad by Stacey, Penton-man and yours. DanBa as well.

On FEL, since it carries all of the metadata(L0-L9), Its safe to assume that in the event the target display doesn't need to tone map. The bits of metadata designated for 12 bit reconstruction on the target display is all that is left. Well, that and black bar data or cropping.

MEL, most of that data wouldn't exist. I do find it odd that there is a option to map the HDR10 base layer to 1000 nits so that it represents a full 4000 nit grade(FEL & MEL).

Your right DV and its metadata is primarily for or is tone mapping

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by DisplayCalNoob

Yeah, I stopped reading any blogs, and focused my reading to Dolby whitepapers, colorist interviews(some connected to MixingLight, patents, post here and abroad by Stacey, Penton-man and yours. DanBa as well.

On FEL, since it carries all of the metadata(L0-L9), Its safe to assume that in the event the target display doesn't need to tone map. The bits of metadata designated for 12 bit reconstruction on the target display is all that is left. Well, that and black bar data or cropping.

MEL, most of that data wouldn't exist. I do find it odd that there is a option to map the HDR10 base layer to 1000 nits so that it represents a full 4000 nit grade(FEL & MEL).

Your right DV and its metadata is primarily for or is tone mapping

MEL can carry the same dynamic metadata for the tone mapping as what FEL does. The point with FEL is that it's not just metadata, it's an actual video stream that contains the 'residual' information between the BL and EL - albeit downrezzed into 1920x1080 and in black and white, as representing luminance differences doesn't require colour - which is then uprezzed back to 2160p and combined with the base layer, using a whole bunch of pre-processing to determine what to keep from one layer and overlay from another.

[DisplayCalNoob]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

MEL can carry the same dynamic metadata for the tone mapping as what FEL does. The point with FEL is that it's not just metadata, it's an actual video stream that contains the 'residual' information between the BL and EL - albeit downrezzed into 1920x1080 and in black and white, as representing luminance differences doesn't require colour - which is then uprezzed back to 2160p and combined with the base layer, using a whole bunch of pre-processing to determine what to keep from one layer and overlay from another.

Slight correction on my previous comment. No mapping means the HDR10 base layer gets the full 4000 nit master, instead of being mapped down to 1000 nits.

Back to your comment. That would explain the processing power requirements for DV. Just interrupting a DV stream with the info button can cause that window of info to chug. I didn't know the EL carried luma data in that matter, I guess it makes it easier to map color gamut data. Thanks for that nugget of info.

[PeterTHX]

Call me crazy, but isn't the function of DV having metadata for the entirety of the feature help tonemap every shot of every scene, not just the display's "best guess", to match exactly what was in the mastering suite?

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by LordoftheRings

Please Penton, do what you excel @ ... one of your excellencies, by providing one of those past links

mrtickleuk?, Waboman? or a question to other of the co-membership readers:
I’ve been busy trying to stay alive during coronavirus times while working, so what ever happened to the proposed Thriller in Manila, featuring on the main card D-Nice vs. Vincent Teoh, referenced further on down this page in the counter punch by D-Nice - https://www.avsforum.com/forum/40-ol...l#post59832544

did the bout happen somewhere later in the same ^ thread or did the duke out move to and merit a dedicated thread, as there’s lots of drama in the previous pages worthy a featured bout. Last I checked, I think Vincent was up on points.

P.S.
LordoftheRings, as to another, I have visual proof as to where I was with friends on March 8, 1971, do you remember where you were?

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

some mystical magical process only known to a few crusty shamans,

from a crusty shaman - https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...t#post17374823

[LordoftheRings]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

mrtickleuk?, Waboman? or a question to other of the co-membership readers:
I’ve been busy trying to stay alive during coronavirus times while working, so what ever happened to the proposed Thriller in Manila, featuring on the main card D-Nice vs. Vincent Teoh, referenced further on down this page in the counter punch by D-Nice - https://www.avsforum.com/forum/40-ol...l#post59832544

did the bout happen somewhere later in the same ^ thread or did the duke out move to and merit a dedicated thread, as there’s lots of drama in the previous pages worthy a featured bout. Last I checked, I think Vincent was up on points.

P.S.
LordoftheRings, as to another, I have visual proof as to where I was with friends on March 8, 1971, do you remember where you were?

1. I don't follow AVS ... too violent for me.
2. March 8, 1971 I was in Quebec with Roxane...girlfriend, and listening to Pink Floyd...in surround sound.

Back to HDR ...

[Waboman]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

mrtickleuk?, Waboman? or a question to other of the co-membership readers:
I’ve been busy trying to stay alive during coronavirus times while working, so what ever happened to the proposed Thriller in Manila, featuring on the main card D-Nice vs. Vincent Teoh, referenced further on down this page in the counter punch by D-Nice - https://www.avsforum.com/forum/40-ol...l#post59832544

did the bout happen somewhere later in the same ^ thread or did the duke out move to and merit a dedicated thread, as there’s lots of drama in the previous pages worthy a featured bout. Last I checked, I think Vincent was up on points.

P.S.
LordoftheRings, as to another, I have visual proof as to where I was with friends on March 8, 1971, do you remember where you were?

Nah, a lot of back and forth. Mod came in, deleted some posts, told them to stop bickering and that was that. I had my money out. Was ready to buy a ticket, some popcorn and place a bet at Caesar's sportsbook.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by Waboman

Nah, a lot of back and forth. Mod came in, deleted some posts, told them to stop bickering and that was that. I had my money out. Was ready to buy a ticket, some popcorn and place a bet at Caesar's sportsbook.

It was a fun read in any case. I especially liked the fella who kept popping up saying "I've worked in monitors for 20 years, just set it to how you like!"

[woodspoon]

Should we comment here on the new h.266 codec or open a new thread?

[mrtickleuk]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

I especially liked the fella who kept popping up saying "I've worked in monitors for 20 years, just set it to how you like!"

I agree that that poster (trucheli, post #912) was a very entertaining and unwitting clown . I take a different view to you on the argument being "entertaining" though: we could have done without all the childish abuse in that thread - I'm not at all surprised that the deleted posts got deleted given the tantrums in them.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by mrtickleuk

I agree that that poster (trucheli, post #912) was a very entertaining and unwitting clown . I take a different view to you on the argument being "entertaining" though: we could have done without all the childish abuse in that thread - I'm not at all surprised that the deleted posts got deleted given the tantrums in them.

I didn't see what went on pre-clean up but even so, I love how Vincent comes across as SUCH an easy-going and mild-mannered guy in his videos (which I still love watching BTW) but on forums he becomes this suffer-no-fools badass who will take down anyone and everyone if they don't agree with him.

[Lee A Stewart]

Successor to HEVC Good News for Hi-Resolution Video

BERLIN— Fraunhofer HHI has announced the approval of the H.266/Versatile Video Coding (VVC) standard, which it says reduces bandwidth needed for high resolution (4K and up) video by up to 50% compared to its predecessor, HEVC.

A result of collaboration among the world’s largest tech companies—Apple, Ericsson, Intel, Huawei, Microsoft, Qualcomm and Sony—boasts improved compression without compromising visual quality, according to Fraunhofer HHI. The new standard can provide efficient transmission and storage of all video resolutions from SD to HD up to 4K and 8K, while also supporting HDR video and omnidirectional 360-degree video.

The new chips to use H.266/VVC are currently being designed, and Fraunhofer HHI is expected to publish the first software (for both encoder and decoder) to support H.266/VVC, by the fall according to Thomas Schierl, head of Video Coding and Analytics department at Fraunhofer HHI.

https://www.tvtechnology.com/news/fr...oding-standard

[Geoff D]

Takes 6.5x longer to encode than HEVC though, ouch. And don't expect to see it appended to the UHD Blu-ray format any time soon, probably not ever.

[PeterTHX]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Takes 6.5x longer to encode than HEVC though, ouch. And don't expect to see it appended to the UHD Blu-ray format any time soon, probably not ever.

There would be no way to implement it - it would render any previous players obsolete. It would need to be a whole new format.

[Lee A Stewart]

What VVC may accomplish is more 4K streaming. I expect to see new TVs with VVC chips in them at CES 2021 if the time table holds up along with ATSC 3.0 another good use for VVC as there really aren't any TVs with a 3.0 receiver. Maybe with VVC we will actually see 4K HDR broadcasts instead of the planned 1080P HDR ones.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by LordoftheRings

1. I don't follow AVS ... too violent for me.

I’ve found their HDR Discussion thread and their upcoming feature films thread (like for Top Gun: Maverick) to be quite inviting, with lots of leeway, and the folks being nice, especially recognizing quality. Plus, in other threads, the mods transparently, publicly expressing their reasons for their actionable decisions. All good traits I’d say, you may have just gotten in with a bad crowd somewhere. Cliques abound on all these forums.

Originally Posted by LordoftheRings

2. March 8, 1971 I was in Quebec with Roxane...girlfriend, and listening to Pink Floyd...in surround sound.

I would have found it fun to be with a girl named Roxanne in ’78, as for that particular date in ’71, I was hangin with the boys in an arena with a lot of screaming fans - decades later despite us being spread all across the country, I've kept up with some of them.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Waboman

Nah, a lot of back and forth. Mod came in, deleted some posts, told them to stop bickering and that was that.

Told Vincent and Dewayne to stop bickering?, or members of the peanut gallery chiming in not to do so? Of what I saw, albeit always a late spectator) was that the calibrators were making candid point/counterpoints with the collateral damage being, for instance, Sony Electronics likely not fond of reading some of the conversation, e.g. “Sony, in their arrogant nature, simply chose not to implement it (Dolby Vision IQ) on the A8H or any of their other X1 Ultimate and lower chipset products”.

The only ‘testiness’ I read and remember was the point/counterpoint discussion between D-Nice and Tyler P….. https://www.avsforum.com/forum/40-ol...l#post59793490
But Tyler was not to be featured in the main bout anyway.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Waboman

I had my money out. Was ready to buy a ticket, some popcorn and place a bet at Caesar's sportsbook.

Maybe you shouldn’t reveal to me such things, for if your wife ever asks me about it if we’re seated next to each other at the SoFi (in the post on the virus thread that was inexplicably deleted by neither of us….?maybe someone here is employed by the Kroenke family?), now I’m obliged to spill the beans and tell her why I think your pictured wallet is always empty.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by PeterTHX

There would be no way to implement it - it would render any previous players obsolete. It would need to be a whole new format.

Which is exactly the point. But some folks will no doubt have the notion that they can just drop it into a player and call it a day.