HDR Discussion Thread

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by LordoftheRings

Very old news (no, not on Top Gun 2 or Chuck Norris) ... but on everyone's favorite show ...
• https://www.irishpost.com/entertainm...p-scene-166605

Monday is the grand drama finale, who will be the Ultimate survivor and sitting on the throne's chair (with a Starbucks coffee cup)?

Having experience as to what happens on set - https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...a#post16050169 I’m still more pragmatic as to the true origin of the cup, i.e. I think Starbuck’s may have received undeserved *recognition* - https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...s#post16384232

That said, when I watched episode 4, honestly, I didn’t recognize the placement of the infamous cup as I was too busy listening to Tormund Giantsbane’s (sp?) speech and watching whether giant’s milk or ale came spilling out of the horn in his exuberance.

P.S.
On the other hand, maybe I should ask my ophthalmologist to order a perimetry test on me.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Keep in mind that statement was written by Michael in 2015 at a time he (Light Iron) hadn’t had much experience in viewing challenging content on their stable of consumer TVs thru platforms like HBO Now which is not robust enough especially when overloaded and along with the DP’s creative choice, the main culprit(s) in the problematic home viewing situation encountered with episode 3.

As the typical TV owner does not use a well calibrated TV, like it or hate it, that is essentially the status quo (or, in medicolegal cases ‘the standard of care’, which is the basis for establishing blame in court or arbitration panel, when violated) ergo, I don’t think the ‘blame’ should be placed upon the consumer (status quo) and definitely not the final colorist (multi HPA award nominee and winner) as was indicated online by another colorist having no inside knowledge as to the workflow nuances of the production, nor basic knowledge as to whether the contracted post house or HBO created multiple HD delivery files according to HBO specifications.

Miguel Ángel Chacón Espín
Senior Video Engineer & PM in Mediaset España

“I agree with you that HBO did the grading of the master in the highest quality, 4K HDR, with BluRay in mind, in a dark room and with a premium mastering display, and they got amazing results in that environment. But you need to create a different HD SDR master for streaming (if your streaming service doesn’t support 4K HDR). This multi-mastering is very well-known for years in Cinema &TV. This master fits your the viewer parameters (standard TV, light env) in which you must grade with an HD SDR TV, so you can reduce the problems that compression is going to produce (banding, artifacts, etc). There are 2 options to obtain that SDR master from the HDR: do it again in SDR or derive an SDR automatically from the HDR and ‘trim’ it (make some changes on it). Any of them takes some time. Then, it seems that HBO ‘forgot’ to do this second, different, master (maybe time concerns) and they used the 4K HDR, they converted it to HD SDR with some 'default' adjustments', and here is they 'messed up', because this conversion it is something that requires advanced techniques.”

because as I mentioned previously ^ that ‘theory’ holds no merit given some viewers like Kris and others actually received decent picture quality thru their devices on a non-premiere night.

P.S.
Plus, I know it may be a big ask, but Miguel should learn how to type Blu-ray properly.

Sure. But a poorly set up TV - as well as poor viewing conditions in general re: display quality and ambient light - still isn't going to HELP matters, is it? We keep going around on this but I'm not sure either is contradicting the other, I keep saying that this was a combination of everything happening at once to make it such a widespread problem: extremely challenging source, mediocre/poor transmission thereof, mediocre/poor display thereof. With each step it's only going to get worse from there.

While I'm quite sure that 'best buy rooms' are a thing, do they take the time to turn the lights up to full whack and see what the content looks like that way too? I'm reminded of the twitpic in that article with matey watching it in broad daylight...

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Sure. But a poorly set up TV - as well as poor viewing conditions in general re: display quality and ambient light - still isn't going to HELP matters, is it? We keep going around on this but I'm not sure either is contradicting the other, I keep saying that this was a combination of everything happening at once to make it such a widespread problem: extremely challenging source, mediocre/poor transmission thereof, mediocre/poor display thereof. With each step it's only going to get worse from there.

While I'm quite sure that 'best buy rooms' are a thing, do they take the time to turn the lights up to full whack and see what the content looks like that way too? I'm reminded of the twitpic in that article with matey watching it in broad daylight...

I think I’ve said from the beginning the resultant picture quality that viewers experienced was multi-factorial in etiology, but I think these articles written by TV reviewers, calibrators, and non-busy colorists give the false impression as to the significance of the individual TV, proper calibration and ‘messed up’ color grading as being culprits. By far, by weight, the overwhelmingly primary root cause to the situation lies with the creative choice (too dark) combined with the delivery platforms, which I haven’t seen addressed much online. From there, everything else was secondary (no proper calibration) pilling on, making the situation worse.

I also think that too much attention has been given to the factor of those viewers’ ambient lighting conditions while watching episode 3. I realize Joe and Jane sixpack are not that technologically nor scientifically savvy these days, e.g.…

We Asked People If They Care About Homo Sapien Extinction - YouTube

but I think they’ve viewed enough TV shows or movies at home in the past that have been on the dark side and have realized thru plain old common sense that if they turn down/or off the lights in the room, they will then receive a better looking picture which I would imagine a large majority did do after becoming so frustrated with not seeing much of anything for so long during the battle.

[Penton-Man]

Tell me something I don’t know. If Chelsea wins the Europa League Final and finishes in the top 4 in the Prem, do the top 5 teams in the Prem then qualify for Champions next season?....or would it still be for example City, Liverpool, Spurs and Chelsea only qualifying?

[Penton-Man]

meanwhile

https://tech.ebu.ch/news/2019/05/testing-hdr-workflows

[Penton-Man]

Saturday screening at Cine Gear LA now posted (click respective tab) - http://www.cinegearexpo.com/la-expo-special-screenings

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Tell me something I don’t know. If Chelsea wins the Europa League Final and finishes in the top 4 in the Prem, do the top 5 teams in the Prem then qualify for Champions next season?....or would it still be for example City, Liverpool, Spurs and Chelsea only qualifying?

I keep looking at explanations of the permutations but I honestly can't understand it.

[LordoftheRings]

A simple video clip ... with HDR10+ (For full details just go to that YouTube page).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fa_F...ature=youtu.be

• https://tekno3d.com

[Penton-Man]

In case folks are interested in giving back and helping top special operators and their families for their service, I don’t have a reference for Delta but in the case of Navy Seals, this is a reputable charitable organization - https://www.seallegacy.org/

upcoming events – https://www.seallegacy.org/events
they also sell T’s in their store

[DisplayCalNoob]

Vincent got to see the Dolby Pulsar in action, talks about Dolby Vision dynamic metadata vs HDR10 staticmetadata on two Panasonic displays.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EAPy...ature=youtu.be

[DJR662]

I'm not gonna lie, I want 4000 nits of peak brightness at home.

Where's that 2016 Z9D BMD prototype?

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by DisplayCalNoob

Vincent got to see the Dolby Pulsar in action, talks about Dolby Vision dynamic metadata vs HDR10 staticmetadata on two Panasonic displays.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EAPy...ature=youtu.be

Yep, pretty nice video, I saw that earlier this morning and commented on Salty’s thread:

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

reminds me of back in the day –

Flash forward, rather than sitting on one’s laurels, the refinement process for Dolby Vision is ongoing by way of developing display management algorithms and color mapping to help maintain consistent imagery across a wide variety of types of displays under the auspices of the Display Management Core Algorithm working group.

P.S.
b.t.w., for those wondering, the controversial Episode 3 of Season 8 of Game of Thrones was graded on a Davinci Resolve and a colorist grades according to how/what the director or his proxies desire

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Having experience as to what happens on set - https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...a#post16050169 I’m still more pragmatic as to the true origin of the cup, i.e. I think Starbuck’s may have received undeserved *recognition* - https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...s#post16384232

That said, when I watched episode 4, honestly, I didn’t recognize the placement of the infamous cup as I was too busy listening to Tormund Giantsbane’s (sp?) speech and watching whether giant’s milk or ale came spilling out of the horn in his exuberance.

P.S.
On the other hand, maybe I should ask my ophthalmologist to order a perimetry test on me.

, Bob, as a follow-up to that ^ post, I was emailed this to my work email a few minutes ago - https://www.vulture.com/2019/05/game...interview.html

[Waboman]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

b.t.w., for those wondering, the controversial Episode 3 of Season 8 of Game of Thrones was graded on a Davinci Resolve and a colorist grades according to how/what the director or his proxies desire

Are we still talking about that episode? It's so two weeks ago. We've moved on to glaring continuity errors with King's Landing.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Waboman

Are we still talking about that episode? It's so two weeks ago.

not so much, for unlike some of us here – https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...r#post15336235

pictorial illustration:
https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...r#post14803629

we were actually talking more about British journalists/calibrators, for the first time, those folks finally getting the opportunity to see the Dolby Pulsar up close and personal….the GoT episode 3 P.S. was a complimentary tidbit.
Although, since you mentioned it, for those who have the know-how and access, grab some stills from episode 3 into Resolve and you’ll find out with many scenes that peak brightness is around 7-8% which is dark, or, as the Prince of Darkness said…..https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RVS1kkX66GY#t=2m26s

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by DJR662

I'm not gonna lie, I want 4000 nits of peak brightness at home.
Where's that 2016 Z9D BMD prototype?

DJR, go for the gusto
how ‘bout 10,000 nits - https://hdguru.com/calibration-exper...htness-enough/

[Penton-Man]

PM’ed this from over at the *science* forum – https://www.avsforum.com/forum/166-l...l#post58033288

Someone who’s a co-member over there advise ARROW, no it’s not. The often quoted chart is extrapolated from data based upon the notion as interpreted by video engineers (not vision scientists) that maximal visual acuity as being that humans can see detail up to 1 min. of arc, i.e. simple or Snellen acuity, it does not account for Vernier acuity(aka hyperacuity) - https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...r#post16138549
something we’ve discussed intermittently for going on about 4 years now if you follow the hyperlinks back far enough.

And quickly skimming the original post I see what imagic’s proposing, he’s essentially offering his version for the validation of 8K tvs by building on theories introduced in a paper in the SMPTE Journal from ?March 2017 by Ed, but with AI being smart enough to eliminate spatial artifacts by doing something akin to mathematically applying an anti-alias filter to get rid of jaggies without the downside of then-induced softening, which has previously been difficult.

Personally, I think consumers would be far better served if the electronics companies invested more resources into other things that improve picture quality…..at the same time remembering –

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

ask....if they think viewers will see a superior picture in 1080p120 than either 4k or 8k at 60fps for sports, as sports are a big driver of selling new TVs

The answer is…..yes.

because most of us don’t watch photos on TV or gall bladder surgery with nothing moving in the field even if you have an 8K source coming in and don’t need the AI upsamping –

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

From 2016, a possibly valid use case for 8K/60fps over that of 4K/60fps –
https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...l#post12857927

a locked camera showing a field which does not move and operators standing very close to a 85” display….

but alas, the TV manufacturers are not really interested in input from their hardcore users, unlike the guys and gals in the camera divisions from this or that company who are quite amenable to users' suggestions for a better mouse trap.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Waboman

Well, I’ll be gobsmacked. The fish n chips invitational. Say no more, gov’nor. I fancy me a pint(s).

after a hard day (started at 5:00 A.M.) on la job, kicking back ….

[Penton-Man]

addendum to the long post at the bottom of the last page -

Meaning, for those not following, ARROW’s seating distance chart essentially looks very similar to the thee old Carlton Bale chart from years ago, just extrapolated out to higher modern day resolutions. If one wants to present something as gospel, one has to provide evidence, e.g. materials and methods, etc. as to how one came to the conclusion, like so - https://iovs.arvojournals.org/articl...icleid=2185000 , findings of which have been corroborated by other independent investigators in previous and following years.

For the newest chart, I wouldn’t be surprised at all if someone simply took the classic formula -


and substituted different numbers for all the variables and plotted it out.

What’s next? Big pharma comes out with a new drug, does their own clinical trial and without providing detailed proof, just expects everyone to accept the conclusions as to its safety and efficacy? Come on, at least explicitly show how this chart was derived by abiding to recognized international scientific testing methods for video engineers - https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...s#post13365842

[Penton-Man]

And now that our Sunday morning ride is over and I’m getting ready to sit down to watch a bunch of soccer matches on the last day of the Prem, with all this rush to higher static resolution in the news with 8K tvs, I’m reminded of the fact despite the host broadcaster system for the last World Cup providing 4K HDR (in either HLG or PQ, local broadcasters could choose which they fancied), < 10% chose the HDR feed (with the vast majority picking up the SDR feed) because their infrastructure couldn’t handle 4K.