Black Panther 4K UHD (2018)

[elwaylite]

I normally start my discs at -15, and then slowly work higher, especially when I get a scene that is normally spoken conversation early in the movie. Set that scene to where it is loud and clear but not overbearing, and then the boom boom scenes are usually just right.

[Yojimbo68]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

OKAY then WE'LL keep GETTING it WRONG.

Forget it Geoff, it's Blu-Ray.com town...

I have a theory that the audio is actually the original source mix. I noticed that starting with Avengers: Age of Ultron that the mix as heard in the cinema has been disappointing. I went to see Avengers: Infinity War recently and the trailers sounded spot on. Not too loud and not too soft. Then the movie proper begins and the sound was just okay...

[LordoftheRings]

Originally Posted by avs commenter

I watch these Disney movies with younger kids and they appreciate the softer sound. Whenever we watch non Disney movies they get scared by the sudden loud noise.

That is my best guess on why Disney is adopting a new audio philosophy...to not scare the kids, to be more family friendly, more in line with family values.

They could default to that more "peaceful" audio soundtrack all they want, and the kids and families all are very happy.
But for the dark side, the other Disney crowd, the hardcore gamers and head bangers, they could give them their dose too, with blasting dynamics and crushing bass. ...With the sky falling from above. Dolby Atmos was invented to sell 4K discs and new 4K TVs and 4K audio equipment; give that crowd what they paid for. Them too deserve to be entertained from the highest level.

Weird, they killed 3D immersion from 3D discs, and now 3D immersion from 4K discs.
It's not the same Disney we used to have...The Incredibles, PIXAR, has a terrific audio soundtrack, with penetrating bass. Now Black Panther is anti-sesmic, clinically antiseptic, hospitalized, pathetically non-anarmophic, audio dynamics deprived, not in touch with the onscreen action, detached, restrained, slaved, inferior, ...all that low jazz.

[LordoftheRings]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Sure, because a stereo fold-down is one of the things that these mixes were likely neutered to facilitate. We've got the answer, folks! Just watch them in stereo and we'll be fine.

That makes no sense; it's for the stereo vinyl crowd, Woody and the gang.
The year is 2018 with Atmos from Dolby exclusive to 4K.
And Vision from Dolby exclusive to flat panels from LG and TCL and Vizio.
Sony needs not to apply.

[VonMagnum]

I just exhaustively compared a half dozen Marvel discs and several other movies including both TRON movies and a few movies from other studios including Die Hard and The Matrix. There are more than a few differences and I think I may have actually damaged a woofer cone during the testing near the end to boot (yay).

First of all, I concluded that the cry baby WHINING on here is ignoring the other studios entirely. Play the Blu-Ray of The Matrix and its Dolby mix. My god. Its volume is so low that I hit the ZERO mark on my digital surround controller added to the Carver system and I still think it could have been louder (the analog preamp could go higher). As I've mentioned before, I have the THEATER DTS mix here for The Matrix and its been added back into the Blu-Ray video and synced. The difference is night and day for levels. It's literally over 10dB louder in general with higher bass levels to boot. I see mega whining on here about Marvel, but where is the whining for the "weak" Matrix mix?

Marvel titles sounded good (based on dialogue levels) at -5dB almost consistently. The primary difference between titles was how loud the bass got and how much they used the surround channels. There was far less pin-point use of surround in Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 2 than Guardians of the Galaxy (Vol.1). The surround was there in Vol2, but it was more 1990s in style in that distinct stereo sounds were used less than amorphous "pull back" depth effects. That's not to say they weren't there at all. They just seemed to be used less often. Some directors think stereo ping-pong effects distract you from what's happening on-screen. This is not a question of "sound bars" but of artistic choice. There was no lack of mids, highs or even volume in Vol. 2. I simply noticed less ping-pong surround things going on in scenes were there wasn't a lot happening or the action was mostly in front of the camera (giant squid thing).

Now compare TRON: Legacy and TRON (original) to the Marvel titles. The dialogue on both still sounded where it should be at a volume setting of -5. The difference? The EXTREME bass LFE levels of Legacy simply blew away the original movie and ALL the Marvel titles as well I tried. The rear subwoofer behind my chair made me jump on more than one occasion. Is this "good" ??? I dunno. It's a movie that mostly takes place in Cyberspace and even the motorcycle chase had a huge THUMP that I don't think real motorcycles make as they go by. It's a sound effect. It's designed to be impressive sounding. It is. It's not realistic. Now go back to The Matrix where gunshots are going off throughout the movie. If you've ever fired a gun, you are well aware that gun shots in movies are NOWHERE NEAR the levels of reality. You would need earmuffs if they were or risk going deaf (assuming your system could handle those levels). You would also need to have the average level MUCH lower to accommodate the upper extremes. No one complains about this. They just complain about the sounds of spaceships in movies when we have no idea what spaceships sound like, but I'm pretty sure the Apollo rocket in Men In Black 3 would kill your hearing if you were close to it in reality during launch.

Now compare TRON to TRON: Legacy. TRON is WEAK! OMG! It's SO FREAKING WEAK by comparison!!! OMG OMG OMG! I think I might cry! How can this be? Didn't they remix it at the same time as the release of TRON: Legacy for the two-pack 3D box set? What happened? Why didn't my woofer blow on the first TRON??? It MUST be a god damned conspiracy!!!!! Call up Disney and COMPLAIN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Oh yes, Star Wars. Episode 4 is SO DAMN WEAK sounding compared to Episode 3! It's night and day! It's the same Star Wars 6.1 DTS box set! Shouldn't they have made damn sure the older Star Wars movies were up to par?!!??! It's a conspiracy!!!! Call Disney and COMPLAIN!!!!! Star War from 1977 is supposed to be the pinnacle of THX forever dammit! It can't be that analog sound back then simply has more noise and other issues that limit how loud it can be today. And who CARES if it's ACCURATE to the original theater experience or not....George obviously doesn't compare about scene and visual continuity so why would he care about sound?

My conclusion is that NO older movies EVER had the sheer bass levels SOME newer ones have. Some movies have very loud sound effects relative to average "similar" dialogue levels and some movies have loads of stereo pin-point surround things going on all over the movie and some use the surround channels much more sparingly.

Then there's the use of 3D and the ENDLESS COMPLAINTS those of us that read 3D Forums have to put up with. Blade Runner 2049 got a LOT of complaints about "WEAK" 3D. Yet it got an award for best 3D conversion of 2017. How can this be? There seemed to be some average differences between smaller sets and large screen projectors in this regard of how well the 3D impressed. To me, it looked extremely "natural" in terms of depth like I was seeing what I would see if I was in that flying car or standing on that street, etc. But people who want "extreme 3D" don't want natural! They want a showpiece to demonstrate their kick-arse system with! And Blade Runner aint' it Jack! Put on Valerian and the City of a Thousand Planets! Look! It's almost like every scene is set up to demonstrate extreme depth! Hey, put on Jaws 3D from 1983. It has stuff sticking out of the screen more than any other title I know of. It also has some film grain and a boring/lame story, but hey! EXTREME 3D!!!!

Other examples seemed to largely dynamic range related. The Last Jedi vocals were at the same relative levels as The Force Awakens, but Last Jedi seemed to save blasts of sound for key moments rather than use them all the time. But that was true at points in The Force Awakens. It's when the Star Killer blew up the first planet that I heard my woofer ring in a very unnatural fashion making me think it might have suddenly cracked or loosened up at the very least. Yet Revenge of the Sith sounds far more impressive in terms of crazy sound effects and surround use during that opening space battle. Call Lucasfilm and complain!

I conclude that movie soundtracks vary a LOT and that you can't please everyone all of the time and those that return movies because they thought it should be louder or whatever clearly never liked the movie to begin with. I used to watch movies on VHS and Laserdisc and even antenna TV. Hell, I wanted to see a movie. But today's spoiled generations aren't concerned with wars or starving kids or even schools being shot up. What they're the most pissed off about is they thought Black Panther's soundtrack should have been louder, more bass driven and used the surround more so screw it! I'm starting #SpoiledLivesMatter!

[Nothing371]

Originally Posted by RockyIII

Then you are watching the wrong genre of movie. Try drama or comedy for less cgi

shut up, Rocky.

[Blu-Ray HD]

fixed

[LordoftheRings]

Originally Posted by VonMagnum

[Show spoiler]I just exhaustively compared a half dozen Marvel discs and several other movies including both TRON movies and a few movies from other studios including Die Hard and The Matrix. There are more than a few differences and I think I may have actually damaged a woofer cone during the testing near the end to boot (yay).

First of all, I concluded that the cry baby WHINING on here is ignoring the other studios entirely. Play the Blu-Ray of The Matrix and its Dolby mix. My god. Its volume is so low that I hit the ZERO mark on my digital surround controller added to the Carver system and I still think it could have been louder (the analog preamp could go higher). As I've mentioned before, I have the THEATER DTS mix here for The Matrix and its been added back into the Blu-Ray video and synced. The difference is night and day for levels. It's literally over 10dB louder in general with higher bass levels to boot. I see mega whining on here about Marvel, but where is the whining for the "weak" Matrix mix?

Marvel titles sounded good (based on dialogue levels) at -5dB almost consistently. The primary difference between titles was how loud the bass got and how much they used the surround channels. There was far less pin-point use of surround in Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 2 than Guardians of the Galaxy (Vol.1). The surround was there in Vol2, but it was more 1990s in style in that distinct stereo sounds were used less than amorphous "pull back" depth effects. That's not to say they weren't there at all. They just seemed to be used less often. Some directors think stereo ping-pong effects distract you from what's happening on-screen. This is not a question of "sound bars" but of artistic choice. There was no lack of mids, highs or even volume in Vol. 2. I simply noticed less ping-pong surround things going on in scenes were there wasn't a lot happening or the action was mostly in front of the camera (giant squid thing).

Now compare TRON: Legacy and TRON (original) to the Marvel titles. The dialogue on both still sounded where it should be at a volume setting of -5. The difference? The EXTREME bass LFE levels of Legacy simply blew away the original movie and ALL the Marvel titles as well I tried. The rear subwoofer behind my chair made me jump on more than one occasion. Is this "good" ??? I dunno. It's a movie that mostly takes place in Cyberspace and even the motorcycle chase had a huge THUMP that I don't think real motorcycles make as they go by. It's a sound effect. It's designed to be impressive sounding. It is. It's not realistic. Now go back to The Matrix where gunshots are going off throughout the movie. If you've ever fired a gun, you are well aware that gun shots in movies are NOWHERE NEAR the levels of reality. You would need earmuffs if they were or risk going deaf (assuming your system could handle those levels). You would also need to have the average level MUCH lower to accommodate the upper extremes. No one complains about this. They just complain about the sounds of spaceships in movies when we have no idea what spaceships sound like, but I'm pretty sure the Apollo rocket in Men In Black 3 would kill your hearing if you were close to it in reality during launch.

Now compare TRON to TRON: Legacy. TRON is WEAK! OMG! It's SO FREAKING WEAK by comparison!!! OMG OMG OMG! I think I might cry! How can this be? Didn't they remix it at the same time as the release of TRON: Legacy for the two-pack 3D box set? What happened? Why didn't my woofer blow on the first TRON??? It MUST be a god damned conspiracy!!!!! Call up Disney and COMPLAIN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Oh yes, Star Wars. Episode 4 is SO DAMN WEAK sounding compared to Episode 3! It's night and day! It's the same Star Wars 6.1 DTS box set! Shouldn't they have made damn sure the older Star Wars movies were up to par?!!??! It's a conspiracy!!!! Call Disney and COMPLAIN!!!!! Star War from 1977 is supposed to be the pinnacle of THX forever dammit! It can't be that analog sound back then simply has more noise and other issues that limit how loud it can be today. And who CARES if it's ACCURATE to the original theater experience or not....George obviously doesn't compare about scene and visual continuity so why would he care about sound?

My conclusion is that NO older movies EVER had the sheer bass levels SOME newer ones have. Some movies have very loud sound effects relative to average "similar" dialogue levels and some movies have loads of stereo pin-point surround things going on all over the movie and some use the surround channels much more sparingly.

Then there's the use of 3D and the ENDLESS COMPLAINTS those of us that read 3D Forums have to put up with. Blade Runner 2049 got a LOT of complaints about "WEAK" 3D. Yet it got an award for best 3D conversion of 2017. How can this be? There seemed to be some average differences between smaller sets and large screen projectors in this regard of how well the 3D impressed. To me, it looked extremely "natural" in terms of depth like I was seeing what I would see if I was in that flying car or standing on that street, etc. But people who want "extreme 3D" don't want natural! They want a showpiece to demonstrate their kick-arse system with! And Blade Runner aint' it Jack! Put on Valerian and the City of a Thousand Planets! Look! It's almost like every scene is set up to demonstrate extreme depth! Hey, put on Jaws 3D from 1983. It has stuff sticking out of the screen more than any other title I know of. It also has some film grain and a boring/lame story, but hey! EXTREME 3D!!!!

Other examples seemed to largely dynamic range related. The Last Jedi vocals were at the same relative levels as The Force Awakens, but Last Jedi seemed to save blasts of sound for key moments rather than use them all the time. But that was true at points in The Force Awakens. It's when the Star Killer blew up the first planet that I heard my woofer ring in a very unnatural fashion making me think it might have suddenly cracked or loosened up at the very least. Yet Revenge of the Sith sounds far more impressive in terms of crazy sound effects and surround use during that opening space battle. Call Lucasfilm and complain!

I conclude that movie soundtracks vary a LOT and that you can't please everyone all of the time and those that return movies because they thought it should be louder or whatever clearly never liked the movie to begin with. I used to watch movies on VHS and Laserdisc and even antenna TV. Hell, I wanted to see a movie. But today's spoiled generations aren't concerned with wars or starving kids or even schools being shot up. What they're the most pissed off about is they thought Black Panther's soundtrack should have been louder, more bass driven and used the surround more so screw it! I'm starting #SpoiledLivesMatter!

To make a long story short, Black Panther on 4K Blu-ray is definitely lacking in the audio department, period. ...Same with Star Wars Vlll and Thor 3.

We like or we don't like, it's everyone's right.
Without the full audio experience, for me personally, it doesn't match the onscreen action in some important scenes. And if it doesn't, it takes me out of the immersive movie experience...fifty percent out overall, approximately...my very best compte-rendu des faits. Voila bien.

[dcx4610]

Got to watch it this weekend for the first time. It was very good and it was nice to see a serious movie after back to back to back comedies from Marvel.

As for the 4K, yeah the audio was pretty lacking but that's par for the course with Disney it seems. I thought the HDR was fantastic though. The night and jungle scenes were dark and lifelike and in particular, the ancestral plane was gorgeous.

I'm happy with the release overall. Disney needs to up their game in the audio department though.

[benji888578]

Originally Posted by LordoftheRings

To make a long story short, Black Panther on 4K Blu-ray is definitely lacking in the audio department, period. ...Same with Star Wars Vlll and Thor 3.

We like or we don't like, it's everyone's right.
Without the full audio experience, for me personally, it doesn't match the onscreen action in some important scenes. And if it doesn't, it takes me out of the immersive movie experience...fifty percent out overall, approximately...my very best compte-rendu des faits. Voila bien.

The first Disney Marvel film to have reduced sound levels was Avengers Age of Ultron, then some had great soundtracks, but, there definitely is a new trend in front heavy, reduced level audio, even Avengers Infinity War had a front-heavy lowered effects level, (I'm talking about not only the discs, also in the cinemas...in other words, it's not just the home mix that has changed). The audio is lower volume overall.

Basically, this is taking these movies out of their genre and putting them more into a dialogue based genre with reduced effects levels, and, I am another that does not appreciate this at all, I want to hear it all, immerse me in this world that you've created, don't give me the dialogue overbearing everything else, for buck's sake, these are live-action COMIC books about SUPERHEROs, not nice children's sleepy time books made into nice story time movies, (or, in the case of Star Wars, science fiction/fantasy/action, not a nice little children's story.)

Basically, I agree with LordoftheRings, this is Disney handling things and toning things down, making them more "family friendly". One thing families should know, at home, if it's a Dolby audio track, they can use the Dynamic Range reducing "Night Mode", (or, in the case of Apple TV, "Reduce Loud Sounds"), educate them to use these settings instead of doing it in the mix and ruining the experience for the majority, (surely only a minority must be complaining loudly).

[VonMagnum]

Originally Posted by LordoftheRings

To make a long story short, Black Panther on 4K Blu-ray is definitely lacking in the audio department, period. ...Same with Star Wars Vlll and Thor 3.

We like or we don't like, it's everyone's right.
Without the full audio experience, for me personally, it doesn't match the onscreen action in some important scenes. And if it doesn't, it takes me out of the immersive movie experience...fifty percent out overall, approximately...my very best compte-rendu des faits. Voila bien.

My point is by that measure, The Matrix is lacking too. So is the original Tron. So are the original Star Wars trilogy (whatever lacks in The Last Jedi, it's lacking a LOT MORE in A New Hope because it doesn't have earthshaking bass or massive use of pin-point object rear sound effects either! So are most movies from the 1990s or earlier....

This trend for earthshaking levels of bass and massive rear channel sound effects (and now overhead with Atmos) is rather new by comparison. Clearly, some are addicted to it and go into withdrawal when they don't get it on every single film. They then blame Disney for supposedly making soundtracks for sound bars....

I remember back in the 1990s when Dolby Digital and DTS first came out how much arguing there was about the "proper" use of surround channels. All the so-called experts pointed out how stereo in the surrounds would distract viewers from the picture on the screen and how sparingly it should be used for anything other than mono-type Dolby Surround effects most of the time. Anything else would "pull you out of the movie". Here, we have claims of exactly the opposite. Yet 3D? Who wants more immersion? 3D sucks says the masses!

I'm still waiting on my 3D Black Panther to compare. I don't plan on trying to return it either way unless it won't play.

Originally Posted by benji888578

The first Disney Marvel film to have reduced sound levels was Avengers Age of Ultron, then some had great soundtracks, but, there definitely is a new trend in front heavy, reduced level audio, even Avengers Infinity War had a front-heavy lowered effects level, (I'm talking about not only the discs, also in the cinemas...in other words, it's not just the home mix that has changed). The audio is lower volume overall.

Front heavy sounds more like the 1990s theory of surround. Surround is there to augment the visuals on screen, but not so much to distract your attention from them. As for "overall reduced volume" that makes no sense what-so-ever. If I reduce the overall volume by 20% and then burn a Blu-Ray, one only has to turn up the volume level by 20% to "fix" it. There didn't used to be any standards (there still aren't for music) for average and peak volume levels in a movie until Lucas's company came along with THX and started to try and get everyone on the same basic page. And yet ironically it is Disney that now owns Lucasfilm and Lucas's Skywalker sound and the head guy for Skywalker Sound is the one in charge of all these recent Marvel Movies (Josh Lowden). I suggested someone write to him and ask him what's up with this trend towards "front heavy" soundtracks with what I'd say is more like somewhat "bass reduced" sound. If anyone would know WHY, it's him.

Basically, this is taking these movies out of their genre and putting them more into a dialogue based genre with reduced effects levels, and, I am another that does not appreciate this at all, I want to hear it all, immerse me in this world that you've created, don't give me the dialogue overbearing everything else, for buck's sake, these are live-action COMIC books about SUPERHEROs, not nice children's sleepy time books made into nice story time movies, (or, in the case of Star Wars, science fiction/fantasy/action, not a nice little children's story.)

It's funny; someone commented that the T2 remaster has sound effects, etc. TOO LOUD to hear the dialogue without blasting their ears away with sound effects. I guess you can't please everyone....

[benji888578]

Originally Posted by VonMagnum

...
And yet ironically it is Disney that now owns Lucasfilm and Lucas's Skywalker sound and the head guy for Skywalker Sound is the one in charge of all these recent Marvel Movies (Josh Lowden). I suggested someone write to him and ask him what's up with this trend towards "front heavy" soundtracks with what I'd say is more like somewhat "bass reduced" sound. If anyone would know WHY, it's him.
....

Last time I sat through the credits I recall not only Skywalker Sound, but, in the same way there are several VFX houses used, there are several audio houses used as well, not just Skywalker Sound, however, if Josh Lowden is in charge of the final product, I will gladly write him.

[benji888578]

Originally Posted by avs commenter

I watch these Disney movies with younger kids and they appreciate the softer sound. Whenever we watch non Disney movies they get scared by the sudden loud noise.

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Guardians 2 sounds AWESOME? That's news to me. It may not be AS neutered as Age of Ultron but there's still something missing, as with every other Disney disc (be it Star Wars or Marvel) I've heard since then.

Disney are taking the piss by putting an Atmos and DD+ track on the same bloody disc though, there's no reason why the DD+ couldn't be the "kiddie friendly" mix (might as well dub out any swears while they're at it, "For gosh sakes watch your language!") with the Atmos as the balls-out version with the proper dynamic range.

(At least with Dolby audio), instead of making the mix more gentle, they should educate people how to use the "Night mode" or ("Reduce Loud Sounds" mode on Apple TV). This setting should be available on anything that decodes Dolby audio, and, if using TV speakers or a sound bar, perhaps this setting should be on all the time for people that adjust volume up & down.

[LordoftheRings]

Coco was another recent Disney release lacking in sheer dynamics when the scenes demanded it. And of course you had the turn the volume up as well.

The Matrix and other older films from Star Wars and the 90s we are no more living in that era. This is now, 4K with Atmos for the last two years plus.
Take advantage of it or go home. Tomorrow I will get The Matrix and check the audio.

Saving Private Ryan 4K was dynamite audio wise.
Blade Runner 2049 4K is a lesson on audio that all studios can learn from.
Tron: Legacy is no small peanuts ... no mickey mouse stuff here.
Interstellar in just 5.1-channel is a total blast out-of-space experience!
Dunkirk in 5.1 might be missing some sound elevation in some scenes, perhaps, but I'm satisfied with the audio mix @ 99.15%
The last two Dark Knights...fantastic audio and ambiance.
Heat (1995), Ronin (1998), Den of Thieves, Wind River, ...not even 4K, no Atmos, just 5.1 and they sound better than the latest Disney flicks like Black Panther in 4K with Atmos and making billions of dollars.

Top Gun (1986), the intro tune with the jet taking off...wow!

Movie magic time man, Disney's kingdom com with the castle and fireworks, where is it gone!

Star Wars, I want to be blasted off, pulverized, I want to explode in trillions of fragments, blazed off by the light sabers, razor cut off with my blood spilling in the galaxy of infinity, and meet my destiny in Elon Musk's Roadster floating somewhere for the next few billion years.
I want to feel the footsteps of the humongous machines in Star Wars, feel the explosions of the mile long spaceships, even if in space there's no sound.
When two planets collide I want that in my home too.

Gravity, they remade it with Atmos; excellent.

This is 2018, Black Panther and Infinity Wars from Avengers, this is our time, our expression, our living life, our sound, our wars @ the movies, it's big money, I want that money too...through my speakers everywhere and through the bottom of my subwoofers. I want the floor of my room to rip apart under my couch, and be melted instantly by the hot lava coming up from the infernal fires through those fissures under my feet. I want my walls to collapse, my ceiling to crack wide open so that I can see the zillions of stars @ night in the pure black sky of darkness.

This is not asking too much, this is sparta, this is Black Panther man!

[LordoftheRings]

Sorry for the long post, VonMagnum.

[Waboman]

[ray0414]

I could tell the audio was muffled from the get go. Vocals were very hard to understand without cranking up my volume. That's usually not a good sign to start off a movie. Picture was good too (but soft cgi Arial shots stick out). Movie was pretty good but slightly overhyped in my opinion.

[erikstoryteller]

Free digital movie code 7C7CVNGESY4 - has been claimed.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by drawn

If Disney releases Infinity War with subpar audio... I'm going to be sick.

Dude...it's going to have neutered Disney Atmouse™ AND will be in the 2.39 aspect ratio too...bwahahahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

[Elbie]

It's sad that reviewers won't say this because they want free products.